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> I’m not a beta tester, but cryptocurrency is the worst 100% this. I'm not a beta tester, but I am a signal user. I reeeally don't want to have to hedge my re

> I’m not a beta tester, but cryptocurrency is the worst 100% this. I'm not a beta tester, but I am a signal user. I reeeally don't want to have to hedge my recommendation of signal because it's involved with some cryptocurrency BS. Please, just be a chat app.

epalm 6y ago
Agreed, please just be a chat app.
- alexnewman 6y ago
  Why should signal be the only client I use without it.
  - astrea 6y ago
    Alternative question: Why does every client need it?
  - epalm 6y ago
    Ever heard the expression “do one thing well”? Unix applications were built on this principle, if you need a reference. Let the chat app be a chat app. Let the payment app be a payment app. Or, to put it another way, do you recognize that a chat app and a payment app have different incentives? Combining them means now your chat app has payment app related incentives. Do you see this as a good thing? If so, why?
    - qqii 6y ago
      This is an often said criticism but the reality is that the mobile app ecosystem fundimentally breaks this principle. When was the last time you saw an mobile app taking advantage of another one apart from tre camera? The only and most common time Android apps communicate is with Google Play Services. Context switching on mobile or GUIs in general also don't follow this principle. Modern GUIs integrate plenty of things (file explorer, image editor, basic camera, etc) becuase mobile package management doesn't resolve dependancies automatically or allow for a great deal of UI customisation. Especially in a messaging client imagine not being able to send photos, videos, audio, or files!c GUIs are here to stay so until we figure out a composable and we'll adopted GUI solution "doing one thing well" is not really an option.
      - fvdessen 6y ago
        > When was the last time you saw an mobile app taking advantage of another one apart from tre camera? The only and most common time Android apps communicate is with Google Play Services. I do this all the time when I use mobile payment apps. Website has a link that opens the app, I do my payment, back to the safari afterwards. It also works from within other apps.
hiq 6y ago
It would have been more interesting to read your reaction to their answer to this concern, which is: > We’ve only been testing this in beta in one country, so lots of people haven’t seen this yet and are imagining the worst. Don’t worry, it’s an opt-in feature, so if you don’t ever want to use payments in Signal, you never have to.
- owenversteeg 6y ago
  Of course it's opt in, it'd be patently absurd for it not to be. Nobody would use a chat app where some kind of weird crypto payments were mandatory. Advertising its opt-in nature as a feature is like advertising your cereal as asbestos free. https://xkcd.com/641/ https://xkcd.com/641/
  - hiq 6y ago
    > Advertising its opt-in nature as a feature is like advertising your cereal as asbestos free. I fail to see how, care to explain? It's opt-in as any other feature which is not the core of the app. You don't have to send stickers or GIFs. If you don't want to receive messages at all, you shouldn't install Signal because it will be hard to avoid, it's a core feature, it's not really opt-in.
    - ineptech 6y ago
      a) "Install this app, it's safe" != "Install this app, but only use this part, don't click on that part" b) opt-in features that are very profitable have a funny habit of transmorphing in to opt-out
      - rOOb85 6y ago
        Except it's not enabled or visible by default. It will take the user navigating the settings to enable it. We all know non-tech users rarely if ever change default settings they don't understand.
        6y ago
__MatrixMan__ 6y ago
Sinal wants to protect their users. Sometimes those users ask each other to Venmo them some funds. Venmo isn't to be trusted with privacy. This seems like a natural next step to me.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
  If I wanted to use the external money app they're piggybacking on, I can use that. I don't need it to be all one app. I have a web browser app for all-in-one app when I want that.
  - __MatrixMan__ 6y ago
    Yeah, you get to choose if you're the one sending the money. But sometimes people who want to send you money think that they're being helpful and find you on Venmo before you've had the opportunity to talk about payment privacy. If you're using a privacy focused app, it should guide you towards defaults that maintain that level of privacy. Explicitly choosing a medium that has different privacy profile should be non-default behavior. Letting people who don't want to think about it say "good-enough-for-signal-is-good-enough-for-me" and use the built in wallet is totally in line with Signal's mission.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  Will they also block people from sending links? I cannot trust random websites with my privacy.
  - __MatrixMan__ 6y ago
    Adding the ability to attach crypto to your messages is nothing like blocking links. It's like providing an option to send links which will by default open in a tor browser.
arenaninja 6y ago
I somewhat disagree. Sometimes I need to send payments internationally; in the US most chat apps allow for this. Or people use CashApp/PayPal. Sometimes I'm chatting with friends outside of the US and the choices to send money are very limited and problematic (e.g.: Argentina inflation, low PayPal adoption outside US and I think CashApp isn't available) I don't know the specifics of the cryptocurrency being used, but adding the ability to send money is welcome
- gruez 6y ago
  >in the US most chat apps allow for this and those would be? The top chat apps are: https://www.statista.com/statistics/258749/most-popular-global-mobile-messenger-apps/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/258749/most-popular-glob...
  - Gaelan 6y ago
    That list is global, and the US list[0] seems weird, but I'll go over some apps that are and aren't on the list: FB Messenger (#1): looks like it does Snapchat (#2): did, but killed it in 2018. Don't think it ever had significant traction WhatsApp (#3), Instagram (not listed, probably because it isn't primarily a messenger, but from personal experience it is commonly used as one): nope, but might be getting it soon[1] Messenger by Google (#4): looks like it does from their website, but I don't use Android Discord (#5): nope iMessage (not listed, but hard to believe that's correct): does, via Apple Cash So yes, messengers with send-money features are fairly common in the US. That being said, at least in my experience (college age, PNW) nobody uses them—we use use dedicated apps like Cash and Venmo. [0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/350461/mobile-messenger-app-usage-usa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/350461/mobile-messenger-... [1]: https://www.cnet.com/news/facebook-pay-will-let-you-send-payments-on-messenger-whatsapp-and-instagram/ https://www.cnet.com/news/facebook-pay-will-let-you-send-pay...
    - arenaninja 6y ago
      Yeah in the US CashApp/Zelle/PayPal works great. FB/Apple/Google messenger apps support this but adoption is relatively low especially compared to something like WeChat
bosswipe 6y ago
> Please, just be a chat app. Chat apps used to be just: send text. Over time the standard expectation for a chat app has become send text + online status + image + gifs + video + link previews + typing indicators + @ mentions + emoji reactions + stickers Fundamentally I don't see why adding "send money" violates it being just a chat app.
- mLuby 6y ago
  You're right, chat apps have evolved. That's the problem; Signal is good, but it's not the best. I wish it'd focus on matching or overtaking WhatsApp feature-wise rather than getting distracted 10 meters from the finish line. When I'm trying to convince people to switch, privacy isn't the main draw, but if the features they care about are there, then privacy can push them over the edge to switch. I view this foray into payments as a sign that Signal feels its already "good enough" in the chat app department and will be spending its effort elsewhere. Learn from SnapChat: if you're going to shoot the king, don't miss.
qqii 6y ago
I think signal is and have been very clear that they won't remain "just a chat app". I don't have anything against cryptocurrency but I'm taking this as an opportunity to evaluate my alternatives.

epalm 6y ago

Agreed, please just be a chat app.

alexnewman 6y ago
Why should signal be the only client I use without it.
- astrea 6y ago
  Alternative question: Why does every client need it?
- epalm 6y ago
  Ever heard the expression “do one thing well”? Unix applications were built on this principle, if you need a reference. Let the chat app be a chat app. Let the payment app be a payment app. Or, to put it another way, do you recognize that a chat app and a payment app have different incentives? Combining them means now your chat app has payment app related incentives. Do you see this as a good thing? If so, why?
  - qqii 6y ago
    This is an often said criticism but the reality is that the mobile app ecosystem fundimentally breaks this principle. When was the last time you saw an mobile app taking advantage of another one apart from tre camera? The only and most common time Android apps communicate is with Google Play Services. Context switching on mobile or GUIs in general also don't follow this principle. Modern GUIs integrate plenty of things (file explorer, image editor, basic camera, etc) becuase mobile package management doesn't resolve dependancies automatically or allow for a great deal of UI customisation. Especially in a messaging client imagine not being able to send photos, videos, audio, or files!c GUIs are here to stay so until we figure out a composable and we'll adopted GUI solution "doing one thing well" is not really an option.
    - fvdessen 6y ago
      > When was the last time you saw an mobile app taking advantage of another one apart from tre camera? The only and most common time Android apps communicate is with Google Play Services. I do this all the time when I use mobile payment apps. Website has a link that opens the app, I do my payment, back to the safari afterwards. It also works from within other apps.

hiq 6y ago

It would have been more interesting to read your reaction to their answer to this concern, which is: > We’ve only been testing this in beta in one country, so lots of people haven’t seen this yet and are imagining the worst. Don’t worry, it’s an opt-in feature, so if you don’t ever want to use payments in Signal, you never have to.

owenversteeg 6y ago
Of course it's opt in, it'd be patently absurd for it not to be. Nobody would use a chat app where some kind of weird crypto payments were mandatory. Advertising its opt-in nature as a feature is like advertising your cereal as asbestos free. https://xkcd.com/641/ https://xkcd.com/641/
- hiq 6y ago
  > Advertising its opt-in nature as a feature is like advertising your cereal as asbestos free. I fail to see how, care to explain? It's opt-in as any other feature which is not the core of the app. You don't have to send stickers or GIFs. If you don't want to receive messages at all, you shouldn't install Signal because it will be hard to avoid, it's a core feature, it's not really opt-in.
  - ineptech 6y ago
    a) "Install this app, it's safe" != "Install this app, but only use this part, don't click on that part" b) opt-in features that are very profitable have a funny habit of transmorphing in to opt-out
    - rOOb85 6y ago
      Except it's not enabled or visible by default. It will take the user navigating the settings to enable it. We all know non-tech users rarely if ever change default settings they don't understand.
      - 6y ago

__MatrixMan__ 6y ago

Sinal wants to protect their users. Sometimes those users ask each other to Venmo them some funds. Venmo isn't to be trusted with privacy. This seems like a natural next step to me.

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
If I wanted to use the external money app they're piggybacking on, I can use that. I don't need it to be all one app. I have a web browser app for all-in-one app when I want that.
- __MatrixMan__ 6y ago
  Yeah, you get to choose if you're the one sending the money. But sometimes people who want to send you money think that they're being helpful and find you on Venmo before you've had the opportunity to talk about payment privacy. If you're using a privacy focused app, it should guide you towards defaults that maintain that level of privacy. Explicitly choosing a medium that has different privacy profile should be non-default behavior. Letting people who don't want to think about it say "good-enough-for-signal-is-good-enough-for-me" and use the built in wallet is totally in line with Signal's mission.
justapassenger 6y ago
Will they also block people from sending links? I cannot trust random websites with my privacy.
- __MatrixMan__ 6y ago
  Adding the ability to attach crypto to your messages is nothing like blocking links. It's like providing an option to send links which will by default open in a tor browser.

arenaninja 6y ago

I somewhat disagree. Sometimes I need to send payments internationally; in the US most chat apps allow for this. Or people use CashApp/PayPal. Sometimes I'm chatting with friends outside of the US and the choices to send money are very limited and problematic (e.g.: Argentina inflation, low PayPal adoption outside US and I think CashApp isn't available) I don't know the specifics of the cryptocurrency being used, but adding the ability to send money is welcome

gruez 6y ago
>in the US most chat apps allow for this and those would be? The top chat apps are: https://www.statista.com/statistics/258749/most-popular-global-mobile-messenger-apps/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/258749/most-popular-glob...
- Gaelan 6y ago
  That list is global, and the US list[0] seems weird, but I'll go over some apps that are and aren't on the list: FB Messenger (#1): looks like it does Snapchat (#2): did, but killed it in 2018. Don't think it ever had significant traction WhatsApp (#3), Instagram (not listed, probably because it isn't primarily a messenger, but from personal experience it is commonly used as one): nope, but might be getting it soon[1] Messenger by Google (#4): looks like it does from their website, but I don't use Android Discord (#5): nope iMessage (not listed, but hard to believe that's correct): does, via Apple Cash So yes, messengers with send-money features are fairly common in the US. That being said, at least in my experience (college age, PNW) nobody uses them—we use use dedicated apps like Cash and Venmo. [0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/350461/mobile-messenger-app-usage-usa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/350461/mobile-messenger-... [1]: https://www.cnet.com/news/facebook-pay-will-let-you-send-payments-on-messenger-whatsapp-and-instagram/ https://www.cnet.com/news/facebook-pay-will-let-you-send-pay...
  - arenaninja 6y ago
    Yeah in the US CashApp/Zelle/PayPal works great. FB/Apple/Google messenger apps support this but adoption is relatively low especially compared to something like WeChat

bosswipe 6y ago

> Please, just be a chat app. Chat apps used to be just: send text. Over time the standard expectation for a chat app has become send text + online status + image + gifs + video + link previews + typing indicators + @ mentions + emoji reactions + stickers Fundamentally I don't see why adding "send money" violates it being just a chat app.

mLuby 6y ago
You're right, chat apps have evolved. That's the problem; Signal is good, but it's not the best. I wish it'd focus on matching or overtaking WhatsApp feature-wise rather than getting distracted 10 meters from the finish line. When I'm trying to convince people to switch, privacy isn't the main draw, but if the features they care about are there, then privacy can push them over the edge to switch. I view this foray into payments as a sign that Signal feels its already "good enough" in the chat app department and will be spending its effort elsewhere. Learn from SnapChat: if you're going to shoot the king, don't miss.

qqii 6y ago

I think signal is and have been very clear that they won't remain "just a chat app". I don't have anything against cryptocurrency but I'm taking this as an opportunity to evaluate my alternatives.