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I refuse to stand by while my students are indoctrinated
- tick_tock_tick 6y agoIt seems like every religion needs it's "Original Sin".
- plk123 6y agoAs a European, it would be interesting to know if this story is representative of the U.S. education or one of the worst examples. The story is absolutely chilling. The indoctrination, vague "harm" accusations, the public humiliation and clandestine support all sound very familiar. We had a lot of this in the 20th century. It is always driven by bureaucrats without any real talents who nevertheless want to enjoy a comfortable life.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago> it would be interesting to know if this story is representative of the U.S. education or one of the worst examples This shocked my friends who are teachers in New York. Note that this is a private school [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Church_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Church_School
- flyingfences 6y agoI've been out of high school for several years and out of "traditional" public school for several years longer so my anecdata might not be the most accurate, but from what I hear and from those I know, this sort of curriculum is rapidly becoming the norm in most schools and has already become engrained in many. There was a pair of articles [0][1] published in The Atlantic earlier this year that offer another account in another district. I found them very well-written and I think they went into more depth and from a different perspective than TFA here. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/03/should-black-lives-matter-agenda-be-taught-school/618277/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/03/should-bla... [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/black-lives-matter-curriculum-has-unintended-lesson/618501/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/black-live...
- bittercynic 6y agoI work at a US high school that's currently engaged with antiracist training for staff, and it's not like that where I am. The training we're doing basically amounts to how to not be a jerk, and some staff members, including sometimes me, need that kind of training. We have some more conservative leaning staff members, and they're broadly accepted. Can't speak for the whole country, but at least where I work this type of training seems to be a positive thing.
- orthecreedence 6y agoIt's good to hear perspectives like these, thanks for sharing. I hear a lot of damning things about this kind of training from a lot of different directions, but what you're talking about sounds sensible and healthy.
- UncleMeat 6y agoI have friends who have been accused online of being “cultural marxists” by right wing students because they corrected the students’ misunderstanding of the history of slavery and the civil war. It is worth keeping in mind that this author have a strong opinion and wrote this article himself. Clearly he isn’t going to present these ideas in a positive light.
- esarbe 6y agoWell, segregating children in classes according to their perceived ethnicity doesn't really strike me as a good idea, now matter how it is presented.
- throwaway0a5e 6y agoThe single party states always get some amount of of stupid indoctrination. You saw the same crap in the red states when the evangelical Christians had a lot of influence and tried to write evolution out of the curriculum. Now it's the blue states turn to give their kids a bad education. Look at the feedback loops and who's accountable to who and who wants what in the US public education systems and it's clear why these things happen in the single party states. Basically people are trying to please people who they aren't specifically tasked with pleasing but have to as a practical matter. Local officials and administrators implement crap in order to please the loud vocal minority of the local overwhelming majority and the state officials aren't gonna stick their neck out to stop them. Ultimately nobody is accountable for teaching kids anything that can't easily be measured on a test and there's lots of incentives not to teach them to think critically.
- esarbe 6y agoHrm. The USA has many faults but being a single-party state is not one of them. What you describe however is true of any social structure. Vocal, highly engaged minorities dominate the discussion and thus steer normative process. The progression of the process is taken up by the silent majority and societies' overtone window is shifted. It takes another vocal, highly engaged minority to change the influence how the discourse shifts. As soon as the shift in overtone window is noticed by enough members of society, this minority finds together and the shift is halted.
- denton-scratch 6y agoI think you misunderstood; by "single-party state", the commenter is referring to those US states that consistently return candidates from the same party. Of course the union is not single-party; but some of the component states are, in practice.
- esarbe 6y agoAh, I see. Thanks for the clarification!
- happytoexplain 6y ago>if this story is representative Anti-racism education? Yes. This harmful form of anti-racism education? No, this is borderline non-existent. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take it seriously where it appears. Unfortunately, there is a ton of noise around it. Just like anything you can split across ideological lines, party A would like you to believe this never happens, or is in fact a good thing, and party B would like you to believe this is quickly becoming ubiquitous and we must stop the oppressive monsters at any cost.
- MikeUt 6y ago> The morally compromised status of “oppressor” is assigned to one group of students based on their immutable characteristics. In the meantime, dependency, resentment and moral superiority are cultivated in students considered “oppressed.” I wonder what will happen to the oppressor group once they become a minority. Judging by history, I'm sure it'll be something good.
- bad_username 6y ago> I was reprimanded for “acting like an independent agent of a set of principles or ideas or beliefs.” I have no words
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- scrubs 6y agoMLK Junior had --- to use a bit of satire but with a serious message --- had two choices: 1) Because the issue of racism and it's surrounding issues was a dead horse, elected to opt out and open a barber shop, preach, or become a lawyer. Thankfully he didn't. 2) Because the issue of racism and it's surrounding issues was a dead horse, he cause could has said enough talk, and went a violent approach for payback or retribution. Thankfully he didn't. He took the middle road which requires more backbone, more intellect, more will power, better communication, and a better message. Thank goodness for that. To the OP: the whining, and outrage is interesting at the periphery. But now what?
- haram_masala 6y agoHe was a modern-day Erasmus, something we desperately need right now.
- seibelj 6y agoIf this is real and not satire, can anyone here defend these practices logically? This can’t possibly be real.
- orthecreedence 6y ago> The morally compromised status of “oppressor” is assigned to one group of students based on their immutable characteristics. In the meantime, dependency, resentment and moral superiority are cultivated in students considered “oppressed.” When racism is the new anti-racism. > A few days later, the head of school ordered all high school advisors to read a public reprimand of my conduct out loud to every student in the school. This is a religious cult. > "[...] we must work hard to undo this history." Yeah, let's rewrite history. Smart. Reminds me of things like #LandBack and "decolonize" which are nothing more than "gee, it sure sucks these bad things happened" (true) but with a bunch of illegible academic theory slathered on top. News flash: colonization didn't start with white European oppressors, and it won't end with them either. People of all races, genders, religions, etc have been colonizing others since the beginning of history. Whites are not special here. If you want to end colonization, maybe start by speaking out against capitalism and our banking system, which is the true "colonizer" of the day. But what's funny is that these people are acting in service to the ruling class. They are distracting everyone by speaking out against skin color instead of the real empire. It's the oppressor's wet dream. Either way, I'm glad people are starting to speak out against this "movement." We can recognize that there are racial and gender groups that are oppressed and work hard to remedy that without actively becoming full-on racist again and without making an entire generation of people afraid to even talk about these issues.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago> a mandatory, whites-only student and faculty Zoom meeting What the flying fuck? Is this even legal in New York State? Is the author credible? (Noticed the article got flagged.)
- busterarm 6y agoI have younger relatives that are attending private schools right now in NY and can 100% confirm that this (zoom calls segregated by race) is happening. The world's gone batshit.
- moyasari 6y agoTheir parents should pull them out.
- busterarm 6y agoFull scholarship, competitive program, and only a year left. Not a chance. It's time to knuckle down, shut the fuck up and get through with it. The best part is one is mixed-race but presents white so she has to go to the whites-only zoom. Students and faculty collectively decided that she's not mixed-race enough (50/50) to self-identify.
- whatshisface 6y agoMaybe there will be some practical benefits in showing kids how to satisfy contradictory ideological requirements while still meeting their own needs (i.e., lying like rugs and doing what they want), if this is like the upper middle class world they'll have to be navigating in ten years.
- moyasari 6y agoShe should play their game and identify as her non-white heritage. Let the school dare speak up so she calls their hypocrisy.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- gentleman11 6y agoAnti racism has all the qualities of racism. They want you to treat people of colour differently, to pity them, to assume they are weak and that they need to be saved by some massive act of guilt. They aim to never let anyone forget what race they or their associates are. They put race above individual traits. Then they go around reporting or flagging everything they disagrees, like the ops article
- akvadrako 6y agoThat's why the call it anti-racism. Like how anti-matter shares all the features of matter.
- camgunz 6y ago> They want you to treat people of colour differently BIPOC people _are_ different. They have different experiences in America. It's not racist to acknowledge and respect this. > to pity them, to assume they are weak This is going way too far. No serious anti-racism activist says this. > and that they need to be saved by some massive act of guilt If you look at asthma rates in the Black community vs. the average, it's not guilt that motivates people to address it, it's rationality and decency. Although guilt wouldn't be wrong either! > They aim to never let anyone forget what race they or their associates are. ...in the same way I don't forget my sex, gender, name, nationality, etc. These are core parts of one's identity. > They put race above individual traits. Insofar as race exists, it's absolutely an individual trait? If you're saying we should look past race into a person's merits, no anti-racist activist is saying we shouldn't. In fact, that's kind of the point. Unless you're making a weird reverse racism argument, which is hogwash.
- twobitshifter 6y agoIt seems like there has been an evolution from my upbringing in the 90s. We were taught against judging people by the color of their skin and to reject racist notions in the name of equality. Now the teaching is that we didn’t go far enough with equality and to reverse racism we need to actively drive out hidden and structural bias. This is jarring after being indoctrinated with one set of beliefs and seeing them rejected in favor of a new system. I would expect to see different teaching in the next generation. I hope that we are on a dampening sinusoid towards something reasonable, where the ideals of equality can be realized and the structures that lead to unequal outcomes vanish. I think that’s both what the teachers of the past and today are hoping for.
- oliwarner 6y ago> we didn’t go far enough with equality Given we have staggeringly high inherited inequality... No, aiming at equality demonstrably isn't going to deliver it. But neither these ideas (or criticisms) are new. Unskilled white folks have been moaning about "diversity hires" since the 80s in the UK. What might be changing is looking at things in terms of hereditary opportunity. But it's not easy to ask people to live with less, so others can live with some.
- type0 6y ago> What might be changing is looking at things in terms of hereditary opportunity. please stop spreading eugenics ideologies on HN!
- spacemanmatt 6y agoYou're saying hereditary opportunity is eugenics? Hard pass. There is significant evidence that wealthy families stay wealthy generation over generation in most parts of the world.
- type0 6y agoIt is exactly the terms by which the jews were prosecuted in Nazi Germany, the view was they had too much hereditary opportunities: too much wealth, too much influence and you know the outcome.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y agoHonestly, I'm at the point that pretending to say I believe in god is an easier thing to aqcuiesce than some of these downright irrational "anti-racism" campaigns in corporate america. If I see someone of minority status, the only time I'll bring it up is if we're friends and it's relevant to the conversation. It's a unique trait. For some reason the left has altered it into being a badge of honor that white people should feel ashamed for noticing. And for some reason management is falling in line. Nobody cares. If anything it just makes it easier to weed out individuals of both white and minority status by seeing who challenges it or tries to use it as a means to challenge management.
- tanseydavid 6y agoThis is a really, really well-written piece. Thank you for this. We need MORE thoughtful pieces like this. I am flabbergasted to see [flagged] on this post.
- tucosan 6y agoWhy has this article been "flagged" and by whom? What does it mean, when a submission is displayed as [flagged] on hn?
- grzm 6y agoFrom the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html > What does [flagged] mean? > It means that users flagged a post as breaking the guidelines or otherwise not belonging on Hacker News.
- jdkee 6y agoWhy was this flagged? This is a discussion of a serious issue that will have very real consequences in American society ten years down the road.
- Stranger43 6y agoPart of the problem is that traditional racism is so much more comfortable to the elite then any talk of class structures and inherited wealth/status so the system will try to re-frame any systematic/structural inequality issues to racism as a way to divert attention away from the actual socioeconomic mechanisms at play.
- rland 6y agoRacism: impossible to truly solve, deeply interpersonal/psychological, completely different for every person, depending on a constantly changing, kaleidoscopic array of individual, social, media, linguistic, and cultural values. Economic Inequality: material, quantifiable, & immediately actionable -- for any person, regardless of social standing, background, or experience. ::thinking::
- JarlUlvi 6y agoI must say, you make an excellent point. Normally when I hear Critical Race Theory in the workplace, I hear Privilege Theory too, but really White Privilege Theory. Do you think that the elites will push back more at any serious attempts to analyze the status quo, given the economics dominate far more than do mere exteriors?
- dtx1 6y agoJordan Peterson was right... God i hope this BS stays contained to north america...
- MrDresden 6y agoAs I am a caucasian living in a european country, predominantly populated by caucasians, I can only try to relate to how it is to be in a minority in your own country, and how tense the racial tensions are currently in the U.S. That being said, reading that description of the sterile legal proceedure and idology fueled indoctrination that is being imposed on those kids genuienly scares me. How will things get healed if a whole generation will be brought up in an environment where they are dissuaded from asking, or being asked, the tough questions. Where feelings of quilt or righteous superiority are instilled in them over aspects of their society that they have not had a part in shaping, yet now need to answer for. My humble view has always been that conflict between humans can only be resolved by dialogue. And as humans are messy creatures, those dialogues will have to be messy. Proceduralizing it like this will just cause more harm, than it solves.
- aliswe 6y agoI didnt understand whos country it is, and who is the minority / majority?
- MrDresden 6y agoAs the article clearly mentions Manhattan as the location of the school, it can be deduced that the country is the U.S. As for the population ratios in the U.S, a short internet search tells me that there are estimated to be 330 million people living in the U.S as of 2020, of whom it is estimated that 46.8 million are african americans and 60 million are hispanic. That comes down to 14.18% and 18.18% respectively. So given some margin for error, and accounting for other minority groups, only 1 in 3 would be of another skin colour than white in the U.S.
- _dps 6y agoThere is a large generational gradient here which may be relevant. As of 2016 non-hispanic white is just slightly less than 50% of births [0]. The 1 in 3 number is a good estimate for the entire US population, but the school age population is trending toward the 1:1 we see in births. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/23/its-official-minority-babies-are-the-majority-among-the-nations-infants-but-only-just/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/23/its-officia...
- MrMan 6y agoPrivate schools are definitely at the core of the problem.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- spacemanmatt 6y agoMeh, outrage peddling will always stir up the faithless.
- helen___keller 6y agoPrivate schools have always found seemingly-authoritarian measures to induce their students into proper thoughts and acts, from dictating how they dress, how they associate and date, what substances they may not use, perhaps how they worship as well. If a school is trying to direct it's students in something other than its core competencies (of education and maybe athletics), you know it's going to be nonsense. This latest iteration of private schools wielding wokeness as a cudgel is likely to be no different.
- brailsafe 6y agoRegardless of the credibility of Weiss (as indicated by others might be sus), this essay reads almost like a primary source you'd read from the time of early Christianity, or during the Justinian plague. Looking back, they're events that seemed to have happened, but the accounts greatly exaggerated. Since we're living through it and can see the evidence, it begs the question of how exaggerated were the old writings?
- gbronner 6y agoThere's a ton of empty office space in NYC that is leased but unused, and unlikely to clear the sublease market. There are a lot of parents of all races who feel that they'd prefer their kids to focus on more traditional academic skills rather than on identity issues. There are a lot of teachers who would prefer to teach in less politicized climes. NYC private schools that charge 57k use about 20% of that for scholarships, and another huge chunk to pay administrative costs -- e.g. headmasters routinely get 500k + a house. So a group of teachers could partner with a company that would donate the office space in return for a tax write-off and an ex executive and recruit significant numbers of private school students by offering a better education at a lower price.