5 ms·

If your employer required this, would you comply? [Edited from Would Google and Facebook employees comply]

NegativeLatency 6y ago
No
shadowgovt 6y ago
You previously asked about Google and Facebook employees. If you connect your Android phone to your corporate Google account, you will be required to install the corp monitoring software suite, which (among other things) includes both location tracking and nuke-from-orbit features. The company does encourage you to configure your phone properly to keep your private info in a separate non-corp account to minimize undesired data leakage, since the corp side of things is assumed to be observable for security and corporate policy reasons (I can't remember right now if the nuke-from-orbit would wipe the private side of the phone's install also). You can choose not to do this, though it will probably limit your career prospects in the long run (especially if you're SRE and need a convenient notification solution for when you're on-call). Although, honestly, if one doesn't trust Google's handling of private information, one should probably re-think one's employment relationship with them. Anecdotally from my own observation, plenty of employees comply because they trust Google's handling of everyone's private info, including their own (and that's even given the understanding that Google's access to one's "private" info when one is working as an employee on corporate tasks can be more open... They won't snoop your personal Gmail account, but they absolutely reserve the right to investigate your corporate one, for example).
- silicon2401 6y ago
  > You can choose not to do this, though it will probably limit your career prospects in the long run (especially if you're SRE and need a convenient notification solution for when you're on-call). If a company wants me to be on-call or do any kind of mobile work, they can give me a phone. I let this slide at one job because it was a unicorn where I actually loved the job, but from then I've been able to get corporate phones and it's been key.
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    Oh, to be clear: Google will absolutely provide you a phone if you choose not to do this to your personal device. ... but if you're SRE oncall, you'll probably have that phone on you (or at least within hearing distance) at all times when you're on shift. I'd assumed the relevant issue was having a tracking device on your person your employer can access, not whether the employer was footing the bill for the tracking device they encourage you to have on your person. Again anecdotally: most employees I know just set it up on their personal device. It's more convenient than carrying two devices around when one knows one'll be carrying a smartphone anyway.
    - drewzero1 6y ago
      I was slightly more alarmed by the "nuke from orbit" than the tracking, though they're both troubling enough. Not that I'm in much danger of working for Google anyway.
      - shadowgovt 6y ago
        Probably worth noting that given the Cloud nature of almost all the Google apps, the opsec model here is that the phone is discardable. Your photos are backed up to Photos. Your mail is mirrored on Gmail. All your docs are in Drive. Your contacts are in Contacts. And so on. You don't have precious, irretrievable data on that device anyway, because it's a phone (as in, "There's nothing Google's gonna do to your phone that wouldn't happen to it if you dropped it in a toilet, probably don't keep the only copy of your baby's first words on something that fragile").
    - spathi_fwiffo 6y ago
      yes. beyond tracking there is also a spy app on your phone that can likely access personal data. So, a separate device would save your from that part, at least.
- Yizahi 6y ago
  Privacy aside, connecting private Google account to the corporate one is sooo extreme move nowadays, for both sides. Google may nuke whole account and everything linked to it without any way to appeal and reverse it. Then unless you happen o have a prominent Twitter account to complain and pray for some Google employee to stumble upon your post you are out of luck.
- danpalmer 6y ago
  Companies this size just give you a company phone.
- Spoom 6y ago
  > If you connect your Android phone to your corporate Google account, you will be required to install the corp monitoring software suite, which (among other things) includes both location tracking and nuke-from-orbit features. My understanding is that on personally-owned Android devices, a work profile cannot specifically track location by itself. A force-installed app on the work profile could, but you can turn off location tracking on the work profile easily[1]. > The company does encourage you to configure your phone properly to keep your private info in a separate non-corp account to minimize undesired data leakage, since the corp side of things is assumed to be observable for security and corporate policy reasons (I can't remember right now if the nuke-from-orbit would wipe the private side of the phone's install also). On personally-owned Android devices, a remote wipe only wipes the work profile. It doesn't touch the personal profile side[2]. Googler, opinions my own. 1. https://support.google.com/work/android/answer/7029265?hl=en&ref_topic=7069773 https://support.google.com/work/android/answer/7029265?hl=en... 2. https://support.google.com/work/android/answer/7502354?hl=en&ref_topic=7069773#zippy=%2Ci-own-my-device https://support.google.com/work/android/answer/7502354?hl=en...
- eptcyka 6y ago
  Would it not be possible to have 2 phones - a corporate one and a personal one?
mnw21cam 6y ago
No I wouldn't. But then on this side of the pond I have much better protections in law against this sort of thing. That's both from a data protection point of view, but also from an employment law point of view. I was struck by the part in the article where it says: 'However, Samfiru added, an employer can let an employee go "for pretty much any reason" as long as any severance that is owed is paid out.' Over here, if an employer imposes unreasonable conditions on an employee, that employee refuses, and the employer fires them because of that, then that's unfair dismissal, and the employee can take the employer to an employment tribunal. The main problem at the tribunal would be proving that the refusal to accept the conditions was the reason for dismissal. When I read that "her refusal to download the app was mentioned in her letter of termination", over here the employee would have the employer over a barrel. It even goes further here. If an employer imposes unreasonable conditions, and the employee resigns because of them, that's constructive dismissal, and the employee can take the employer to the tribunal just like if the employer fired the employee.
foobarian 6y ago
If it's a gig job, the better question is, if Uber required this, would you comply? The rest is history...
- unreal37 6y ago
  With Uber, having the company app on your phone is a requirement for accepting the job. So complying is not really an issue.
CoastalCoder 6y ago
It would depend on my situation. I'm not always in the negotiating position I'd like to be in. If it was the only way to feed my family and house them in a safe section of town, then probably yes. If I was in a less desperate situation, then probably no.
gav 6y ago
I've worked for a hardware company where our employee badges were tracked throughout the building, you had to badge in and out to go to the bathroom, which could be tracked I guess. I didn't really have a problem with it, I feel that this sort of non-intrusive tracking is perfectly acceptable when you're on the clock.
- Joker_vD 6y ago
  It's pretty common around here for firms that don't "face" the customers (a software shop is a perfect example) to install magnet locks with RFID card readers at the office entrance, and give the key cards to the workers (and the office building owners, obviously). Throw in some primitive software to count timestamps of enters/exits, and here's your punch clock for the digital era.
  - gpm 6y ago
    Are they having you swipe when you exit as well?
    - Joker_vD 6y ago
      Yes, there is a reader on the inside too.
kevinventullo 6y ago
It’s a little more reasonable if they’re doing it for security reasons rather than tracking my productivity.
ThinkingGuy 6y ago
I don't have a personal phone, so I would be unable to comply.
tjpnz 6y ago
I've never been asked to install any apps (nor would I) but we did have the option of giving the company a MAC address for automatic clockin when arriving at the office (this was prior to Covid - we're mostly all remote now). I would've also refused that but I never had anyone pressure me to do it.
beforeolives 6y ago
> Edited from Would Google and Facebook employees comply This seems very unlikely considering that Google and Facebook are consistently among some of the best companies in the world to work for. There is a big difference between being an employee at those companies and being a user of their products.
mitchdoogle 6y ago
No way, I don't even check work email on my personal device
- vharuck 6y ago
  I've been explicitly told not to do this, because it means my computer could be taken as evidence in a court case or (as a government employee) an open records request.
altgoogler 6y ago
Googler here. My opinions are my own. I would do this if the company provided the hardware and I only had to use the device to do work things during work hours. (As other pointed out Google does in fact provide hardware to employees needing this capability.) Mandating use on personal hardware is a different story.

You previously asked about Google and Facebook employees. If you connect your Android phone to your corporate Google account, you will be required to install the corp monitoring software suite, which (among other things) includes both location tracking and nuke-from-orbit features. The company does encourage you to configure your phone properly to keep your private info in a separate non-corp account to minimize undesired data leakage, since the corp side of things is assumed to be observable for security and corporate policy reasons (I can't remember right now if the nuke-from-orbit would wipe the private side of the phone's install also). You can choose not to do this, though it will probably limit your career prospects in the long run (especially if you're SRE and need a convenient notification solution for when you're on-call). Although, honestly, if one doesn't trust Google's handling of private information, one should probably re-think one's employment relationship with them. Anecdotally from my own observation, plenty of employees comply because they trust Google's handling of everyone's private info, including their own (and that's even given the understanding that Google's access to one's "private" info when one is working as an employee on corporate tasks can be more open... They won't snoop your personal Gmail account, but they absolutely reserve the right to investigate your corporate one, for example).

silicon2401 6y ago
> You can choose not to do this, though it will probably limit your career prospects in the long run (especially if you're SRE and need a convenient notification solution for when you're on-call). If a company wants me to be on-call or do any kind of mobile work, they can give me a phone. I let this slide at one job because it was a unicorn where I actually loved the job, but from then I've been able to get corporate phones and it's been key.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  Oh, to be clear: Google will absolutely provide you a phone if you choose not to do this to your personal device. ... but if you're SRE oncall, you'll probably have that phone on you (or at least within hearing distance) at all times when you're on shift. I'd assumed the relevant issue was having a tracking device on your person your employer can access, not whether the employer was footing the bill for the tracking device they encourage you to have on your person. Again anecdotally: most employees I know just set it up on their personal device. It's more convenient than carrying two devices around when one knows one'll be carrying a smartphone anyway.
  - drewzero1 6y ago
    I was slightly more alarmed by the "nuke from orbit" than the tracking, though they're both troubling enough. Not that I'm in much danger of working for Google anyway.
    - shadowgovt 6y ago
      Probably worth noting that given the Cloud nature of almost all the Google apps, the opsec model here is that the phone is discardable. Your photos are backed up to Photos. Your mail is mirrored on Gmail. All your docs are in Drive. Your contacts are in Contacts. And so on. You don't have precious, irretrievable data on that device anyway, because it's a phone (as in, "There's nothing Google's gonna do to your phone that wouldn't happen to it if you dropped it in a toilet, probably don't keep the only copy of your baby's first words on something that fragile").
  - spathi_fwiffo 6y ago
    yes. beyond tracking there is also a spy app on your phone that can likely access personal data. So, a separate device would save your from that part, at least.
Yizahi 6y ago
Privacy aside, connecting private Google account to the corporate one is sooo extreme move nowadays, for both sides. Google may nuke whole account and everything linked to it without any way to appeal and reverse it. Then unless you happen o have a prominent Twitter account to complain and pray for some Google employee to stumble upon your post you are out of luck.
danpalmer 6y ago
Companies this size just give you a company phone.
Spoom 6y ago
> If you connect your Android phone to your corporate Google account, you will be required to install the corp monitoring software suite, which (among other things) includes both location tracking and nuke-from-orbit features. My understanding is that on personally-owned Android devices, a work profile cannot specifically track location by itself. A force-installed app on the work profile could, but you can turn off location tracking on the work profile easily[1]. > The company does encourage you to configure your phone properly to keep your private info in a separate non-corp account to minimize undesired data leakage, since the corp side of things is assumed to be observable for security and corporate policy reasons (I can't remember right now if the nuke-from-orbit would wipe the private side of the phone's install also). On personally-owned Android devices, a remote wipe only wipes the work profile. It doesn't touch the personal profile side[2]. Googler, opinions my own. 1. https://support.google.com/work/android/answer/7029265?hl=en&ref_topic=7069773 https://support.google.com/work/android/answer/7029265?hl=en... 2. https://support.google.com/work/android/answer/7502354?hl=en&ref_topic=7069773#zippy=%2Ci-own-my-device https://support.google.com/work/android/answer/7502354?hl=en...
eptcyka 6y ago
Would it not be possible to have 2 phones - a corporate one and a personal one?

mnw21cam 6y ago

No I wouldn't. But then on this side of the pond I have much better protections in law against this sort of thing. That's both from a data protection point of view, but also from an employment law point of view. I was struck by the part in the article where it says: 'However, Samfiru added, an employer can let an employee go "for pretty much any reason" as long as any severance that is owed is paid out.' Over here, if an employer imposes unreasonable conditions on an employee, that employee refuses, and the employer fires them because of that, then that's unfair dismissal, and the employee can take the employer to an employment tribunal. The main problem at the tribunal would be proving that the refusal to accept the conditions was the reason for dismissal. When I read that "her refusal to download the app was mentioned in her letter of termination", over here the employee would have the employer over a barrel. It even goes further here. If an employer imposes unreasonable conditions, and the employee resigns because of them, that's constructive dismissal, and the employee can take the employer to the tribunal just like if the employer fired the employee.

foobarian 6y ago

If it's a gig job, the better question is, if Uber required this, would you comply? The rest is history...

unreal37 6y ago
With Uber, having the company app on your phone is a requirement for accepting the job. So complying is not really an issue.

CoastalCoder 6y ago

It would depend on my situation. I'm not always in the negotiating position I'd like to be in. If it was the only way to feed my family and house them in a safe section of town, then probably yes. If I was in a less desperate situation, then probably no.

gav 6y ago

I've worked for a hardware company where our employee badges were tracked throughout the building, you had to badge in and out to go to the bathroom, which could be tracked I guess. I didn't really have a problem with it, I feel that this sort of non-intrusive tracking is perfectly acceptable when you're on the clock.

Joker_vD 6y ago
It's pretty common around here for firms that don't "face" the customers (a software shop is a perfect example) to install magnet locks with RFID card readers at the office entrance, and give the key cards to the workers (and the office building owners, obviously). Throw in some primitive software to count timestamps of enters/exits, and here's your punch clock for the digital era.
- gpm 6y ago
  Are they having you swipe when you exit as well?
  - Joker_vD 6y ago
    Yes, there is a reader on the inside too.

kevinventullo 6y ago

It’s a little more reasonable if they’re doing it for security reasons rather than tracking my productivity.

ThinkingGuy 6y ago

I don't have a personal phone, so I would be unable to comply.

tjpnz 6y ago

I've never been asked to install any apps (nor would I) but we did have the option of giving the company a MAC address for automatic clockin when arriving at the office (this was prior to Covid - we're mostly all remote now). I would've also refused that but I never had anyone pressure me to do it.

beforeolives 6y ago

> Edited from Would Google and Facebook employees comply This seems very unlikely considering that Google and Facebook are consistently among some of the best companies in the world to work for. There is a big difference between being an employee at those companies and being a user of their products.

mitchdoogle 6y ago

No way, I don't even check work email on my personal device

vharuck 6y ago
I've been explicitly told not to do this, because it means my computer could be taken as evidence in a court case or (as a government employee) an open records request.

altgoogler 6y ago

Googler here. My opinions are my own. I would do this if the company provided the hardware and I only had to use the device to do work things during work hours. (As other pointed out Google does in fact provide hardware to employees needing this capability.) Mandating use on personal hardware is a different story.