6 ms·

Wow, how badly do you have to treat programmers to get them to unionize?

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
I don’t imagine badly. I’d love to be able to have a Union where I can tell my manager not to put me on on-call rotations with no compensation, but I have no bargaining power as an individual. I’m sure other programmers have a whole slew of things that would be great, too, that can only happen if everyone works together to negotiate for it.
- busterarm 5y ago
  in collective bargaining you ALSO have no bargaining power as an individual. That means you can't go to your bosses and say "I think I'm worth this much (more) money". You also can't leave your job to get paid that much, because seniority at your new company means you will start at lower pay than you currently have.
  - Spooky23 5y ago
    Sure you can. Usually there’s a combo of rank+time. I know, I’ve done it. Collective bargaining is usually around work rules and core issues. No non-VP+ individual has the ability to effectively bargain re health insurance. All companies have pay scales. Even massive unionized bureaucracies like the Federal government have the ability to compensate critical employees or critical skills. (Although your definition of critical may not align with the entity)
    - busterarm 5y ago
      I've been in three different unions before I landed in this career. Salary increases were fixed by time and position. Position was always based on seniority. No exceptions. You could try to transfer locations within the same company to try and get better roles (which is how most people got promotions, aside from waiting for people to die). If you changed companies though you started at the bottom, guaranteed, because if you get moved ahead of people in the new company it creates an utter shitstorm. Management at the new job basically has to hate their employees and themselves to do such a thing.
  - freedomben 5y ago
    This is the point that seems so often missed. I was union before I joined tech, and unions are poison to somebody who wants to represent themselves. They completely remove the option. It often forces people into either management or just learn to be happy inside the system.
    - busterarm 5y ago
      It bothers me the ignorance of people who immediately think that having a union means "I'm going to get what I want." No. You're going to get what the union wants. People complain endlessly about HOAs and their behavior. Being in a union is the same shit! By the way, in my professional adult life, there has never been a situation where there was something reasonable that I wanted in my employment contract and didn't get it. Just ask! I wonder how many people out there want unions and are also the kinds of people who don't ask for things they need. And if you want to use unions to get you things that are _unreasonable_ that's bad for everyone.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
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- umvi 5y ago
  > but I have no bargaining power as an individual What about "stop putting me on call without compensation or I will leave the company"
  - randoramax 5y ago
    > What about "stop putting me on call without compensation or I will leave the company" Says the dude without kids and a mortgage who can afford a couple of months without a salary :)
    - umvi 5y ago
      Why does that matter? If you don't like your current job, start looking around until you have a new offer in hand. That new offer in hand is now your leverage ("bargaining power") if you really like your current company. Otherwise if they "call your bluff" you still have a job.
      - Spooky23 5y ago
        Living life by ultimatum is pretty lame. End of the day, requiring such a high friction approach to addressing basic issues sets up incentives to take no action.
        toomuchredbull 5y ago
        Lame living by someone else's ultimatum also. If you had a union you'd have to go on strike for shit you don't necessarily care about and you would have to wait for somebody to age out to get off of pager duty. It's outsourcing responsibility of your life to someone else.
        52-6F-62 5y ago
        In the timeless words of Bob Dylan, "gotta serve somebody"
  - bitmunk 5y ago
- peytn 5y ago
  Are you in a salaried role with pager duty? Are your responsibilities different from what was advertised? It sounds like you’re okay with pager duty—have you tried asking for an increase in comp? You can probably fix your current plight without invoking a union...
- chasd00 5y ago
  with a union, at best, you'll submit a ticket to your rep. Like most tickets, it will likely never see the light of day. btw, would you be prepared to strike if negotiations don't go well? That's the only tool a union has to keep the other side at the bargaining table. heh I doubt you can charge PTO to a strike so i wouldn't expect a paycheck.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  Careful, you may end up on those same rotas all the more when the union rep takes himself off and let's Frank off because they're drinking buddies...
  - busterarm 5y ago
    Having been in unions before, I can confirm that this is exactly what happens. At least Frank is fucked if their relationship ever sours though. Fucking Frank. Everyone wants to see that guy get injured.
lawnchair_larry 5y ago
You’d think, right? Apparently you can pay them some of the highest salaries in the world, make their meals, do their laundry, give them unlimited time off, and they will still find a reason to complain. Then again it’s the NYT, who has been completely overtaken by activists.
- bitmunk 5y ago
  If they treat their employees well they have nothing to fear.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    This is just not true. I have met so, so, many wildly entitled workers (many, but not all, tech). It's a function of detachment from reality, not a function of compensation or material comfort. You can make $1mm a year, earning the company practically nothing, and have a story in head where you're being cheated out of what is rightfully yours. _Anyone_ who thinks they can get away with entitled behavior can build up a narrative in their head where they are denied benefits and even higher compensation they deserve.
  - Yoofie 5y ago
    This is a very naive viewpoint. People's wants, needs and desires will expand to fill up all of space-time if you let them. A lot of people (in general) have a huge sense of entitlement these days when its often not justified.
    - bitmunk 5y ago
      >This is a very naive viewpoint. No it's not, the relationship between the company itself and the employees is fundamentally hostile, the desires of the shareholders will, also, expand to fill up all of space-time if you let them. I'm not saying this out "everybody can be friends :D", just that each one keeps the other in check. Also, a lot of the NYT is already unionized and the apocalypse you speak of hasn't happened. So again, if they treat their employees well they have nothing to fear.
typon 5y ago
Different people have different understanding of self-worth and dignity.
avs733 5y ago
based on this thread, REALLY badly.

I don’t imagine badly. I’d love to be able to have a Union where I can tell my manager not to put me on on-call rotations with no compensation, but I have no bargaining power as an individual. I’m sure other programmers have a whole slew of things that would be great, too, that can only happen if everyone works together to negotiate for it.

busterarm 5y ago
in collective bargaining you ALSO have no bargaining power as an individual. That means you can't go to your bosses and say "I think I'm worth this much (more) money". You also can't leave your job to get paid that much, because seniority at your new company means you will start at lower pay than you currently have.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Sure you can. Usually there’s a combo of rank+time. I know, I’ve done it. Collective bargaining is usually around work rules and core issues. No non-VP+ individual has the ability to effectively bargain re health insurance. All companies have pay scales. Even massive unionized bureaucracies like the Federal government have the ability to compensate critical employees or critical skills. (Although your definition of critical may not align with the entity)
  - busterarm 5y ago
    I've been in three different unions before I landed in this career. Salary increases were fixed by time and position. Position was always based on seniority. No exceptions. You could try to transfer locations within the same company to try and get better roles (which is how most people got promotions, aside from waiting for people to die). If you changed companies though you started at the bottom, guaranteed, because if you get moved ahead of people in the new company it creates an utter shitstorm. Management at the new job basically has to hate their employees and themselves to do such a thing.
- freedomben 5y ago
  This is the point that seems so often missed. I was union before I joined tech, and unions are poison to somebody who wants to represent themselves. They completely remove the option. It often forces people into either management or just learn to be happy inside the system.
  - busterarm 5y ago
    It bothers me the ignorance of people who immediately think that having a union means "I'm going to get what I want." No. You're going to get what the union wants. People complain endlessly about HOAs and their behavior. Being in a union is the same shit! By the way, in my professional adult life, there has never been a situation where there was something reasonable that I wanted in my employment contract and didn't get it. Just ask! I wonder how many people out there want unions and are also the kinds of people who don't ask for things they need. And if you want to use unions to get you things that are _unreasonable_ that's bad for everyone.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
umvi 5y ago
> but I have no bargaining power as an individual What about "stop putting me on call without compensation or I will leave the company"
- randoramax 5y ago
  > What about "stop putting me on call without compensation or I will leave the company" Says the dude without kids and a mortgage who can afford a couple of months without a salary :)
  - umvi 5y ago
    Why does that matter? If you don't like your current job, start looking around until you have a new offer in hand. That new offer in hand is now your leverage ("bargaining power") if you really like your current company. Otherwise if they "call your bluff" you still have a job.
    - Spooky23 5y ago
      Living life by ultimatum is pretty lame. End of the day, requiring such a high friction approach to addressing basic issues sets up incentives to take no action.
      - toomuchredbull 5y ago
        Lame living by someone else's ultimatum also. If you had a union you'd have to go on strike for shit you don't necessarily care about and you would have to wait for somebody to age out to get off of pager duty. It's outsourcing responsibility of your life to someone else.
        52-6F-62 5y ago
        In the timeless words of Bob Dylan, "gotta serve somebody"
- bitmunk 5y ago
peytn 5y ago
Are you in a salaried role with pager duty? Are your responsibilities different from what was advertised? It sounds like you’re okay with pager duty—have you tried asking for an increase in comp? You can probably fix your current plight without invoking a union...
chasd00 5y ago
with a union, at best, you'll submit a ticket to your rep. Like most tickets, it will likely never see the light of day. btw, would you be prepared to strike if negotiations don't go well? That's the only tool a union has to keep the other side at the bargaining table. heh I doubt you can charge PTO to a strike so i wouldn't expect a paycheck.
LatteLazy 5y ago
Careful, you may end up on those same rotas all the more when the union rep takes himself off and let's Frank off because they're drinking buddies...
- busterarm 5y ago
  Having been in unions before, I can confirm that this is exactly what happens. At least Frank is fucked if their relationship ever sours though. Fucking Frank. Everyone wants to see that guy get injured.

lawnchair_larry 5y ago

You’d think, right? Apparently you can pay them some of the highest salaries in the world, make their meals, do their laundry, give them unlimited time off, and they will still find a reason to complain. Then again it’s the NYT, who has been completely overtaken by activists.

bitmunk 5y ago
If they treat their employees well they have nothing to fear.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  This is just not true. I have met so, so, many wildly entitled workers (many, but not all, tech). It's a function of detachment from reality, not a function of compensation or material comfort. You can make $1mm a year, earning the company practically nothing, and have a story in head where you're being cheated out of what is rightfully yours. _Anyone_ who thinks they can get away with entitled behavior can build up a narrative in their head where they are denied benefits and even higher compensation they deserve.
- Yoofie 5y ago
  This is a very naive viewpoint. People's wants, needs and desires will expand to fill up all of space-time if you let them. A lot of people (in general) have a huge sense of entitlement these days when its often not justified.
  - bitmunk 5y ago
    >This is a very naive viewpoint. No it's not, the relationship between the company itself and the employees is fundamentally hostile, the desires of the shareholders will, also, expand to fill up all of space-time if you let them. I'm not saying this out "everybody can be friends :D", just that each one keeps the other in check. Also, a lot of the NYT is already unionized and the apocalypse you speak of hasn't happened. So again, if they treat their employees well they have nothing to fear.

typon 5y ago

Different people have different understanding of self-worth and dignity.

avs733 5y ago

based on this thread, REALLY badly.