24 ms·

Dvorak vs Colemak (2010-2020)

77 points by harporoeder 6y ago

gedy 6y ago
I use Colemak and agree with the bias towards rolling on single hand (Colemak) vs alternating hands (Dvorak). Rolling doesn't feel natural to me. However, Colemak was much easier for me to learn though (I tried Dvorak first), and the ZXVC in same spot without tweaking shortcuts is a plus.
emodendroket 6y ago
My suspicion is that whatever efficiency gains are possible are going to be wiped out by the difficulty of learning a new system and then also not being able to readily have your preferred layout everywhere.
- dheera 6y ago
  I only have 1 data point but it took me about 2-3 weeks to touch type with Dvorak and I found friends who learned QWERTY took much longer, as much as half a year. I also was learning piano so that may have been a factor.
- arafa 6y ago
  I don't find myself to be any faster in Dvorak (70 wpm, like before) and from other users and people online, that seems to be typical. There are some possible gains at the high end, since from what I read most of the confirmed world record holders for typing speed use alternate layouts (for example, https://www.typing.com/blog/fastest-typists/ https://www.typing.com/blog/fastest-typists/).
- 1123581321 6y ago
  Expect to take a few months to get back up to your old speed, perhaps a year to surpass it (not everyone does.) Whether this is a good investment depends on your age, if you have or will likely develop pain from typing QWERTY, and whether you’re able to learn an alternative layout during a time when quick typing isn’t as essential. If you need to regularly use other people’s computers, you’ll retain your ability to type in both layouts.
- samus 6y ago
  If you don't touch type, or if you already type at a fairly high WPM rate, then no, an optimized layout doesn't really matter. Personally, I have been learning to touch type and used the opportunity to use an optimized layout. I have recovered almost all the speed of non-blind Qwerty within a month and plan to stay. Not being able to use it everywhere is not a drawback to me. For those rare events where I cannot use it, I still have more than enough muscle memory for Qwerty.
- tome 6y ago
  For me the efficiency gains were not the point. The point was that changing to Dvorak massively decreased by RSI (although 20 years later I'm discovering that bodyweight strength training may have been even more effective). Not readily having the preferred layout available is a non-issue. Either I'm using a keyboard for less than ten minutes, in which case I hunt-and-peck on QWERTY, or I'm using it for longer, in which case I switch to Dvorak using the OS keyboard settings. It's never been a problem on Windows or Linux. I don't think I've used a Mac during that period but I imagine it's equally easy. As I recall the awkward learning period was between a week and a month. Twenty years later I've never regretted the time invested.
  - emodendroket 6y ago
    I’ve found strength training far more effective for that than all the equipment money can buy, and I tried quite a bit of it.
- goodpoint 6y ago
  It took me a long time to gain speed on Dvorak and I'm not much faster than on Qwerty but the amount of effort required to type is significantly less - absolutely worth it.
1123581321 6y ago
Interesting data. I’ll just mention that if you are looking at changing layouts and are concerned about cut, copy, paste and undo, don’t be. Within a year it won’t bother you to be typing X, C and V with different fingers.
- danpalmer 6y ago
  Agreed, mostly. I used the Dvorak-Command-QWERTY layout on macOS for a long time, it's Dvorak but flips back to QWERTY when you hold Command so that most shortcuts are in the same physical position. After getting a programmable split keyboard it became too much work to get a similar thing to work so I decided to switch shortcuts to where they should be. It's been... ok. The positions of shortcuts definitely encode something that you lose, copy/paste not being next to each other is slightly annoying, and not to mention that some shortcuts move in such a way that the failure mode of getting the shortcut wrong is really bad (e.g. Cmd+, for preferences, get it wrong and you Cmd+W which closes the active window). I'm glad I've switched, but I'm also glad that I didn't switch my shortcuts at the same time that I switched to Dvorak, I think it could have been enough to put me off. Or I guess it might have been easier to do it all at once! One thing that is annoying with the hybrid approach is some software just doesn't support it (I'm looking at you JetBrains, with your 10 year old issue on your issue tracker).
  - samus 6y ago
    The AutoHotkey Script I use on Windows works very well in almost all applications. But in IntelliJ on Windows (not in Linux) it happens multiple times per hour that Shift, Ctrl or Alt locks get engaged (which I didn't know even existed) or that the Script reverts to Qwerty without warning. Restarting the script helps, but it's so annoying that I consider running IntelliJ with an external JRE.
    - samus 6y ago
      Result: running IntelliJ with an external JDK didn't help :/
melling 6y ago
Xah first wrote this over a decade ago. He’s had some RSI issues, and the real problem is simply typing in any form. I remember reading several of his articles thinking that surely within a decade, we’d have better voice assist for programming. Tavis Rudd’s demo looked promising in 2013: https://youtu.be/8SkdfdXWYaI https://youtu.be/8SkdfdXWYaI I’m not sure what’s the best solution. Here are a few that I known of: https://serenade.ai/ https://serenade.ai/ https://talonvoice.com/ https://talonvoice.com/ https://voxhub.io/silvius https://voxhub.io/silvius
arafa 6y ago
Seems like a pretty good analysis. I've been using Dvorak for 20+ years also. The keyboard shortcuts thing is annoying, though I hadn't heard about the wrist strain they cause. I didn't see this discussed, but I actually find the fact that Colemak shares more keys with QWERTY to be a problem for learning if you already know QWERTY (even though that might be the biggest strength). Dvorak only shares the "A" and "M" with QWERTY, but typing those letters always confused my brain the most when learning, and sometimes I'd fall right back into QWERTY in a really frustrating way. I switched to Dvorak because of wrist strain/RSI issues. I was in pretty serious wrist pain and now I rarely have any. It probably wouldn't have been worth it otherwise, but that was a huge benefit to me. I'm not sure if other things would've helped since I didn't try a lot of other approaches first.
- toyg 6y ago
  > I switched to Dvorak because of wrist strain/RSI issues. I did the same with Colemak, and had the same effect. I think the main thing really is just to not use qwerty - that layout is just extrarodinarily unergonomic. It probably also helped that, around the same time I switched to Colemak, I took an interest in overall keyboard ergonomics, and invested in a split keyboard.
asimjalis 6y ago
As dictation technology gets better I suspect the keyboard will not be as relevant for entering English text. One area where dictation does not work well is writing code. Question: Is there a keyboard optimized for typing programming languages rather than for typing English?
- wodenokoto 6y ago
  Coming from a Nordic country where we use a version of ISO layout I would not go so far as to say that US-ansi layout is optimized for programming, but programming languages are definitely constructed around US-ansi.
- hawthornio 6y ago
  Code dictation should be entirely possible with language models. Need to understand how the write the code. But acquiring datasets for many languages and reducing latency may be difficult.
- ezrast 6y ago
  With the exception of Dvorak, every English-centric layout I've looked at (Colemak, Workman, Carpalx, probably a couple others) moves only the letters around, keeping punctuation in the same place as QWERTY. This means the right pinky is heavily overloaded for many/most common programming languages, which use far more punctuation than prose does. Dvorak moves several punctuation keys onto the left hand, which is great, but unfortunately it also moves braces and brackets farther away from the home row, which I found bad enough by itself to prompt me to look elsewhere. There's a variant called "Programmer Dvorak" which is somehow even worse. Aside from moving the numerals into ridiculous positions, now all the paired delimiters are on number keys but not in any consistent way. Both braces are on the left hand. Brackets and parentheses are on opposing hands, but, depending on how you slide your right hand up to the number row (7 and 8 are both natural resting places for the index finger), one pair will not be on corresponding fingers! And in general, I have a hard time touch-typing the middle part of the number row, so I don't like anything that puts common characters there. I've come to the conclusion that no, every common keyboard layout is bad for programming (for me). Eventually I gave up trying to find something suitable and made my own custom layout, which I've been using for a few years now.
cdaringe 6y ago
I'm a happy colemak user of 3 years. The h argument is pretty interesting. As an English only writer and a programmer, I did not personally find the remaining arguments compelling. But, this goes to show how complicated the selection process is, and appreciate the analysis nonetheless.
adrianN 6y ago
I use a modified English Dvorak layout where I put symbols that I use often to a nicer position and added Umlauts so that I can type German. For example Alt+j (the key) produces { and Alt+k produces }. Modifying keyboard layouts is simple enough that I don't see why I shouldn't adapt mine to suit me best. I don't type on other people's computers often enough that it matters that I have to hunt and peck there.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
I have used dvorak for around 15 years now, and I'm very happy with it. Took me 2-3 weeks to type as fast as in QWERTY, and hands feel way more relaxed and easy. For those who are afraid that it will somehow affect QWERTY typing speed, such fears are totally unfounded, I can type QWERTY as easily as I could before, just with some more strain compared to Dvorak. That said: - for developers, the typing speed is not the productivity bottleneck, so you are unlikely to see any real gains - hotkeys are generally a MESS, especially if you use 2 languages on a system. More so on Windows. Less so on Ubuntu.
- weavie 6y ago
  As a counterpoint, my ability to type on Qwerty is shot now that I am on Dvorak. I'm back to searching around on the keyboard with my eyes and tapping with single fingers. I feel sure people question my ability to work on computers when I have to go and fix something on their computers and spend ages just typing out basic stuff..
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    Maybe you weren't all that good with qwerty before? I always felt it's like learning an extra foreign language: learning French doesn't make your German worse.
    - andrewzah 6y ago
      YMMV but after 3-4 weeks of dvorak, I actually did have difficulties when using qwerty. I gave up dvorak because I don't want to have to modify every keyboard/system I'm on, as opposed to just sitting down at a terminal and getting work done.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        I think you might have tried a bit more. I'm typing this on my wife's qwerty laptop and have zero issues with blind typing on it, just a little more strain from having to move fingers more that it is possible on Dvorak.
colmanhumphrey 6y ago
Good to discuss, but I'm not 100% sure about some of the points here. - The `h` problem is purely about moving your index finger, so I don't think it makes sense to talk about the bigram being popular. The relevant number is just how many `h`s people have to type in general - Shortcuts staying the same: saying that there exists a variant of Dvorak created to do this too is a huge point in favour of Colemak. The point is so good that people modified a 70 year old layout to match it! How popular is this variant? - Saying that Colemak is bad because of Vim, then saying it's good because of CapsLock/Backspace BUT that doesn't really count because you can also do this reprogramming with Dvorak: can you not also change Vim? Maybe this is much harder
- samus 6y ago
  Vim is relevant because it is not always possible to customize it. Think of hardened servers or containers. Also, it's an editor of last resort on most Unix systems. It's worth discussing whether nano should take this place instead. Much more tricky are applications that have hardcoded hotkeys, or who listen to an unholy mix of keys and scancodes. Uncommon nowadays (many games are not great at this), but still sucks if it happens.
- messo 6y ago
  I use the default keymapping for Vim with Colemak (Norwegian) and find it a pleasant experience. The up/down movement is reversed, but I got used to it pretty quickly.
poidos 6y ago
[I don't use either layout and don't have much wrist strain / any RSI] I wonder how much of the benefit from using these alternate layouts is due solely to the layout, as opposed to some combination of the layout and better awareness of correct ergonomics, using stretching and warmup techniques, etc. Hard to quantify of course. Would love to hear from anyone that switched to one of these layouts but didn't make any other changes in their wrist health otherwise.
- jeromenerf 6y ago
  I would like data on this too. I use Dvorak on keyboards and QWERTY on touch screens. I find QWERTY difficult to touch for all the obvious reasons but actually pretty good for 2 to 4 fingers typing on a iPhone / iPad. I have seen people typing faster than I do with only 4 fingers and their thumbs, usually with a machine gun style. Dvorak is (great for | forcing you into) touch typing, except that right pinky overuse. It feels good but you don’t really have a choice. My wife doesn’t touch type and is bent over the keyboard, looking down at the keys. Dvorak would not help her until she relaxes down on her chair, and type with more fingers and without looking.
- hawthornio 6y ago
  Purely anecdotal, but I switched to Dvorak for ~6 months in middle school and much preferred it to Qwerty. Now that I’ve spent more years having Qwerty drilled into my brain I’m hesitant to make a switch.
  - goodpoint 6y ago
    I switched to Dvorak after some 12 years of Qwerty. It took ages and was still 100% worth it.
- rgoulter 6y ago
  Learned Dvorak when I was in university; reverted to qwerty sometime after that for some reason. I think because the typematrix I was using broke. Picked Dvorak up again about a year ago after getting one of those fancy ortholinear keyboards. My qwerty was a quick 'undisciplined' hunt-and-peck. (e.g. typing the 'y' in 'your' with the left hand finger). Dvorak was trained with the 'discipline' of each finger being assigned to a column. Qwerty feels somewhat disorganised and chaotic compared do Dvorak (even on the same keyboard). Dvorak feels more comfortable.
kbrwn 6y ago
Colemak user since I taught myself one summer (2012) by spending the first 20 minutes after waking up typing in vim-tutor. I made the switch because I could not stop looking at the keys on QWERTY keyboards no matter what I tried even with blank keys I would look down out of habit. I tried Dvorak and it felt so unnatural. The common key letters for commands were completely in foreign places that I could not get used to at all. After 2 wks of barely getting past 30 wpm on Dvorak I switched to colemak I was able to beat my QWERTY typing speed after only 2 wks of studying and now I can type 200+ words per minutes with over 90% accuracy thinking about spelling slows be down more than anything else. If you are under 30 I suggest you give an alt keyboard layout a shot. Older than that and the time to learn Colemak/Dvorak vs just improving your QWERTY speed/accuracy might not be worth it.
- adrianN 6y ago
  If you type at 90% accuracy, do you go back through your text to fix all the typos or do rely on some kind of automation to do that for you? I don't type particularly fast, but every time I tried increasing my speed my accuracy suffers sufficiently that going back and correcting mistakes takes more time than typing a bit slower.
  - kbrwn 6y ago
    200wpm and 90% accuracy is my result from typing tests while using vi-tutor. In real world scenario I would type slower (closer to 120wpm) to be sure I spell and punctuate without having to backspace or use autocorrect.
- melling 6y ago
  “I switched to colemak I was able to beat my QWERTY typing speed after only 2 wks of studying and now I can type 200+ words per minutes” If it only takes a few weeks then wouldn’t people of almost any age benefit if they type 4-5 hours a day?
  - kbrwn 6y ago
    My experience learning a new keyboard layout was at age 19 an I was not typing for more than a few hours a day. It takes much longer to both break old habits and form new ones from older ages. If you have been typing for 20+ years in QWERTY and use a keyboard everyday professionally learning a new layout will likely be a very hard and frustrating task. Every time you switch back to QWERTY you are basically reversing the practice you have put in. If you are typing for a profession you likely won't want to suffer months of half your former typing speed or less until you catch up.
valarauko 6y ago
Does anybody have recommendations for a layout that works well for a split keyboard (Moonlander, in my case, as and when it arrives)? Learning a split configuration will require work, so may as well learn a better layout at the same time.
- adrianN 6y ago
  Every layout works for a split layout just as well as for a normal layout. You're not supposed to move your hands around either way.
  - toyg 6y ago
    This is the right answer. With proper touchtyping technique, the split does not matter. I use Colemak with my Kinesis split keyboards but that's irrelevant.
  - valarauko 6y ago
    I'm sure that's true, though as a person who currently hunts & pecks, even touch typing would be an upgrade. I'm trying to roll all of the improvements to my typing behaviour into a single month of hell :)
- bambambazooka 6y ago
  I've been using Colemak on a Ergodox since September of last year and am very happy with it. I too switched to Colemak when I started using my Ergodox. The first weeks my head hurt, but now I'm fine.
- michelledepeil 6y ago
  I tried dvorak on the moonlander (and have typed dvorak for a looong time before that on regular keebs), but ended up going back to qwerty, and using a layer for the punctuation surrounding the letters. This way you make the most use of the linear layout in the up-down direction, but avoid too much sideways movement and pinky stretching. Check it out here: https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/MJXZ4/latest/0 https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/MJXZ4/latest/0 You might move the punctuation even more central to really keep it 4-columned.
sourcevault 6y ago
meh, kids use Colemak / Dvorak, it's time to upgrade. My current 'superior' keyboard layout : https://sourcevault.github.io/resume/key10.png https://sourcevault.github.io/resume/key10.png
limeblack 6y ago
> There are Dvorak with QWERTY-shortcuts layout, that comes with Linux This is not accurate really. This used to be the default but at least with Ubuntu/Debian you need 3rd part software. Which means this statement holds true for windows also.
tbenst 6y ago
I prefer the quantitative approach taken by Carpalx [1]. This analysis finds that Dvorak and Colemak are both substantially better than QWERTY, but Colemak has the edge. [1] http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives
- Taikonerd 6y ago
  I think the main take-away from that link is "either option is much better than QWERTY." So, if you're trying to decide between Colemak and Dvorak, remember that you're basically guaranteed to win -- either choice is a big improvement!
- limeblack 6y ago
  If you type alternative languages Dvorak vowel constant alternation makes more sense long term in my experience.
- goodpoint 6y ago
  Colemak has worse hand alternation than Dvorak and Carpalx does not account properly for this.
- pinouchon 6y ago
  I'm using the qgmlwy layout for a few years now, pretty happy with it. I remapped caps & added a new modifier to have a "special chars" layer and it works pretty well. Overall it's more trouble than it's worth, if I had to redo the whole journey, I would simply learn to touch-type with querty (maybe colemak), but I'm still happy with the end result.
Taikonerd 6y ago
I taught myself Colemak last summer, as a pandemic project. If anyone is interested in learning, I recommend the "Tarmak" transitional layouts [1]. It's 5 intermediate layouts to transition from QWERTY to Colemak. Each only changes a few keys. So, rather than 1 big change (where you basically can't touch-type for a month) you have 5 little changes that you can learn over a weekend each. [1] https://forum.colemak.com/topic/1858-learn-colemak-in-steps-with-the-tarmak-layouts/ https://forum.colemak.com/topic/1858-learn-colemak-in-steps-...
- helianer 6y ago
  Tarmak is what finally allowed me to switch away from QWERTY. Prior to tarmak I couldn’t deal with the massive productivity loss that I would initially encounter with Dvorak and I would eventually switch back. The fact that initially steps are the highest impact really helps too.
mumblemumble 6y ago
So, for RSI, I have an alternative hypothesis. My issues are only with my right hand. I'm pretty sure the problem is not QWERTY, it's just the ]'/ keys. Having that one extra column of keys to reach across in order to get to the enter and shift keys means my right hand experiences a lot more wrist movement and stretching than my left hand does. (I find hitting the enter key on an ANSI keyboard to be irritating enough that I'm frankly impressed that anyone tolerates ISO keyboards.) I'm currently giving an ultra-minimalist keyboard, the Atreus, a shot. I'm still in the adjustment period, but it seems to be promising, and a much smaller adjustment than abandoning QWERTY entirely. Bonus points for not being the size of an aircraft carrier, like most ergo keyboards are.
- CarVac 6y ago
  Extra small boards, I contend, do not help for QWERTY because the layout inherently makes you reach all the time. I use a 46-key Mitosis (non-split custom version) with Dvorak and greatly enjoy how little I need to reach with my fingers.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    It might depend on the specific problem a person has. I've never had discomfort with the actual letter keys on QWERTY, and definitely don't feel like I'm having to "reach" to get them. Where, to me, "reach" implies anything that's outside the comfortable range of motion. For example, on a standard QWERTY keyboard, I find the number keys, the Y key, and the brackets to be a reach. Dvorak actually makes that situation a bit worse for me. It moves a somewhat more frequent letter, F, into the Y key's position, and it moves the brackets further away in order to put keys that I use less often in a more accessible position. But that's me. I'd guess that this sort of thing varies a lot from person to person, because we all have different hands.
  - spacemanmatt 6y ago
    I get great mileage out of the Apple keyboard+number pad. Low profile, short, low-resistance key travel, great key density/spacing for my hands at least. It's a lot to like for a low-impact typist.
toyg 6y ago
The point about programming languages is fairly irrelevant; the truth is that basically all layouts are bad for programmers, since they inevitably put special characters at the margins, which are hard to reach. I have a short pinkie so it's extra hard for me. The answer is to use a meta key to add a layer dedicated to those - CapsLock is great for that. I did that last year [0], although I now wish I had that meta-key available on the right side too (I don't want to mess with the traditional Ctrl and Alt, too many programs have shortcuts hard-bound to those). With that extra layer, you can go to town and use the home row for the stuff you really need in your preferred language(s). As for simple text layouts, I never warmed to Dvorak but picked up Colemak very quickly, and now I just can't look back. [0] http://blog.pythonaro.com/2020/06/better-access-to-special-characters.html http://blog.pythonaro.com/2020/06/better-access-to-special-c...
- Syzygies 6y ago
  Yes. The rabbit hole that took for me was writing my own firmware using QMK. Make every key close to home row a tap/hold key accessing either modifier keys or extra layers. My fingers finally travel much less (the apparent promise of Dvorak/Colemak) but for the actual work of programming and operating a computuer. https://github.com/Syzygies/log_folders/blob/master/keyboards/fc660c/keymap.png https://github.com/Syzygies/log_folders/blob/master/keyboard...
  - enragedcacti 6y ago
    yup! A really affordable entry into this that I've found is Epomaker keyboards. I struggled to find the exact layout I wanted in an affordable QMK keyboard. Their software sucks but it works and profiles are stored to the keyboard so it can come with you wherever. They also have split space-bar and 3 space-bar options which is really nice for adding modifier keys beyond Caps-lock or rebinding backspace or escape into a more comfortable position. I realize this is starting to sound like an ad, but my biggest challenge getting into fully reprogrammable keyboards was the huge price tag once you start narrowing features. In my case, a 60% keyboard that retained arrow keys would have been $200+ for a QMK supported model. The Epomaker I picked up was $65 or so.
- 6y ago
jeromenerf 6y ago
I use Dvorak on keyboards and qwerty on touch screens. I am pretty happy with both, but it doesn’t matter a lot regarding my eventual wrist or tendinitis pain. What’s is important for me is drinking water sufficiently, regular exercise, a good posture, a good keyboard then finally the layout. I picked up Dvorak for no real reason 10 years ago; I kept up with it but would not really recommend it, specially because of its intense reliance on the right pinky. I don’t know much about Colemak.
nayuki 6y ago
Been using Dvorak full time since 2004, very happy with it, never looked back at QWERTY. I wrote a long self-interview here: https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak One new point that I haven't worked into the article is the fact that many keyboard shortcuts require a Right Ctrl key or else they can't be done on one hand. At the same time, many laptops on the market omit the Right Ctrl key, to my utter frustration. Manufacturers need to stop messing with keyboard layouts! Even my humble 13-inch Lenovo ThinkPad X220 from year 2012 had a pretty good layout while being compact, while newer machines keep making keyboards worse despite having the same physical dimensions.
- limeblack 6y ago
  Most can be done with one hand on a Mac but I do know what you mean.
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  The X220 keyboard is the holy grail of laptop keyboards as far as I'm concerned. In addition to what you mention, it's got a big fat Escape key that's nice for vi users. This keys has shrunk on newer and competing laptop keyboards, so I've since resorted to exchanging Caps Lock for Escape. The blatant Qwerty-centrism of Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+C, and Ctrl+V is quite annoying for many Dvorak users. In my case, I was looking to cure more than RSI, so before learning Dvorak I incidentally also learned to use a left hand mouse. Combined with Dvorak, theses shortcuts are easier. They're also doubly easier with a left-hand trackball mouse, because you can hold Ctrl down with your left thumb while you control the trackball with your left index/middle fingers, and hit Z/X/C/V, all simultaneously.
  - nayuki 6y ago
    Mostly agreed. Regarding X220, I also like its decently arranged block of Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys and dedicated volume buttons (whereas other laptop keyboards may require Function Lock or Fn). And it has a Context Menu key, which I actually use; many manufacturers (including later Lenovo) think it's superfluous and silently omit it. Regarding the QWERTY-centrism of Ctrl+ZXCV, I have absolutely no problem with their Dvorak equivalents and can touch-type these shortcuts without looking at the keyboard. But I must, must, must have a Right Ctrl key to do this effectively. Just for reference for QWERTY people out there, Dvorak ZXCV is equivalent to QWERTY Slash,B,I,Period. For example, Ctrl+C in Dvorak has the same position as Ctrl+I in QWERTY. I would put my left pinky on I and left thumb (or index finger) on Right Ctrl. And I would put my right hand on the mouse to select text or files or draw.
SkyPuncher 6y ago
I've been using Colemak for 5+ years now. I spent a lot of time researching layouts before I committed to one. My conclusion on efficiency was (1) nobody really knows because everyone types differently (2) raw speed isn't important since most typing I do involves pauses to think. Dvorak and Colemak would both solve a huge problem for me. Qwerty requires a lot of extreme row movements that were causing me a lot of hand pain. Both Dvorak and Colemak move a significant amount of typing to the home row and eliminate a lot of the movement directly between the extremes of the rows. Choosing an extreme, anecdote, a word like minimum alternates between the top and bottom row between every letter on Qwerty. On Colemak, minimum there's only one extreme jump u => m. I've found that this tends to hold true for much of what I type. I personally choose Colemak because I liked the transition process a bit easier. The base layout is closer to Qwerty and you can pick a few keys to transition at a time.
joshkaufman 6y ago
I've been a happy Colemak user since 2012. One of the first things I do when I get a new computer is rearrange the physical keys, which is a significant advantage of Apple non-butterfly keyboards. [1] Aside from less overall movement while typing, Colemak keeps many common keyboard shortcuts the same. The first few hours are very frustrating, but the overall time-to-competence is short. There's a lot of upside and little downside. I wrote about the process of learning Colemak in my book on skill acquisition, and posted a summary of the process and the tools/techniques I used on the book's website. [2] [1] https://twitter.com/joshkaufman/status/1334632614368583680 https://twitter.com/joshkaufman/status/1334632614368583680 [2] https://first20hours.com/typing/ https://first20hours.com/typing/
- Faaak 6y ago
  You should _not_ rearrange the keys when learning a new layout, because then you won't train your muscular memory and it will be worse in the end
  - frosted-flakes 6y ago
    Having to resort to trial-and-error to find the correct key is painful and completely debilitating. You can still develop muscle memory if the labels are correct.
- arh68 6y ago
  You're so right about [1], when possible. I should've rearranged them years ago on this mid-2012 MBA 11" .. maybe I should actually do that, today. I'm quite used to 104-key qwerty boards, but if all my keyboards could say aoeui they totally would. For those chiding the practice, it's not for beginners-still-learning, it's for actual-years-running-users trying to type one-handed once in a while. As for looking at a qwerty keyboard from a dvorak mindset, I'd say dvorak "wins" in my head like my right eye's image wins over my left. I look down and "see" aoeui .. pyf .. dhtns. But it's still confusing. The programmer in me wants a numpad for () [] {} +-/*^% &c. (Do any exist, off the shelf, I wonder?)
jccalhoun 6y ago
Do people really type non-stop long enough to make any of the speed gains actually significant? Even when I was writing my dissertation I would rarely type more than a couple sentences at a time and even then I often had to back space because of a typo or something. If you have some kind of RSI and it helps then it would make sense but at least for me it doesn't make sense for the way I type.
- valarauko 6y ago
  I had RSI issues crop up when I was writing my PhD thesis - a lot of hurried, last minute typing where typos be damned. I'm also mostly hunt and peck, so touch typing would have probably resolved most of my issues.
- carabiner 6y ago
  It's not for speed, it's for comfort/safety. You can type 100 WPM with two fingers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqyiyh_hrUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqyiyh_hrUs This comes up in every HN post.
- spacemanmatt 6y ago
  > If you have some kind of RSI and it helps then it would make sense I think it makes way more sense to consider the risk and the odds of getting a RSI from qwerty vs. dvorak and take preventative action. You don't want to suffer a learning curve on the rehab side of an RSI, while also kicking yourself in the posterior for something that was avoidable.
  - imiric 6y ago
    I feel like more important and easier measures anyone can take to prevent RSI that doesn't involve learning a new keyboard layout are ergonomic: ensure you have a good chair/posture, use a wrist rest (these are debatable, but I couldn't type without one), and avoid taking your hands off the keyboard (don't use a mouse if possible). I've been using QWERTY for decades now, and for years have used a ThinkPad keyboard with a TrackPoint instead of a mouse, use a mostly hotkey-driven workflow, and a wrist rest even on a laptop. Anecdotal, but I've rarely experienced strain and can type comfortably for hours. I know QWERTY is demonstrably worse, but so far I haven't had the need to try another layout. The downsides of losing my current muscle memory, having to remap hotkeys and not being productive on other computers don't seem worth it to me.
kbd 6y ago
Learning Dvorak was one of the best decisions I've made in my career/life. It took a few weeks of effort to get back up to parity with Qwerty but it's paid off for decades.
aendruk 6y ago
I’ve been happily using Colemak for 10+ years but recently decided to give Halmak [1] a try. Only a month in so I’m still slow, but it feels really good. For programming, though, the best decision I’ve made was to add a numpad and common symbols [2] under a second “shift” key to keep my hands on the home row. [1]: https://github.com/MadRabbit/halmak https://github.com/MadRabbit/halmak [2]: https://andrew.kvalhe.im/+qit9y6o8uodxpiqezpxcaw7css6gtfkp https://andrew.kvalhe.im/+qit9y6o8uodxpiqezpxcaw7css6gtfkp
marshallward 6y ago
It would have helped if they compared Dvorak to Colemak mod dh variant. It addresses many of the issues raised here by moving D below T and H below N, and moving the more rare K and G as left-right motions.
inter_netuser 6y ago
Amazingly high prevalence of Colemak in this thread. I'd expect it to be marginal.
messo 6y ago
As long as you do not use QWERTY, you'll be fine :) I have used Colemak for the last 12 years and have never looked back. I started learning Dvorak, but at the time I was using the ctrl+Z/C/V quite much and Colemak became my compromise. Now that I use Vim, the argument about the Z/C/V is not as important anymore. EDIT: Oh, I also used the Q/W (quit, close window) quite much back then because I was using a mac. Still use these in Sway to this day. I also really like that there is a Norwegian Colemak-layout available in Linux by default. Not sure if this is the case in Windows or macOS these days, but it wasn't 12 years ago.
CraigJPerry 6y ago
Xah Lee’s site and videos were really handy for me, i fired a few $$$ his way to say thanks for his efforts. My journey went: 1. Qwerty 2. Dvorak (liked the left right alternation, the fact its available on all OS’s, disliked the common keys on weaker fingers) 2. Colemak mod dk (don’t like rolling, alternating is just more natural, easy to go faster) 3. Halmak - favourite of the lot 4. Halmak + home row mod keys 5. Qwerty + gacs 6. Qwerty + gasc - just worked better than gacs for me Then there was the detour through hardware, zsa moonlander was the most interesting. Very nice key caps. The bad news is that it’s all been for naught. I’m back to touch typing qwerty on a g915. I am using AHK and mimicing Xah Lee’s external keypad idea with the num lock toggle - undo, redo, cut copy paste, all single key actions rather than chords.
creese 6y ago
Dvorak is suboptimal for the command-line. Try typing 'ls -l'.
- notretarded 6y ago
  ll
odiroot 6y ago
I'm a happy user of Colemak for over a year. Although it took me a few months to get used to it. One disadvantage though is, now I have trouble typing on QWERTY.
- hajile 6y ago
  I carry around a vortex Pok3r keyboard. It has builtin colmak, so I can plug it into whatever computer and go (I've been thinking about getting a 40% keyboard, but losing the number row is a huge step).
  - odiroot 6y ago
    That's a great tip, thanks!
nashashmi 6y ago
I can’t get pass breaking keyboard shortcuts with new keyboards. If only there was a way to revert to QWERTY when ctrl alt win were pressed
haikur 6y ago
Just pick one. A 5% typing speed increase won't make you a better programmer.
spiznnx 6y ago
I've been using Colemak for 6 years now. Although not faster, it's much more comfortable, especially in the wrists. Along with frequently switching between mousing, a tented+split keyboard, and remapping programming punctuation on a third layer with QMK, I'm very glad I made the investment to reduce the chance of developing an RSI.
chias 6y ago
I used Dvorak for a couple years before switching back in the mid-2010s. Back then my QWERTY speed was about 120 wpm, and I never got close to that on Dvorak, but really the only time I can even think at 120 wpm is when arguing on the internet so maybe that's not altogether a bad thing. I was never as fast, but typing was a lot more comfortable in general. I ended up switching back due to work computer restrictions (grad student) at the time. I just switched back to Dvorak, and while it's been a solid six years, it's coming back reasonably quickly :) I forgot how much I enjoyed this layout.
opan 6y ago
I used dvorak for about a year and a half. I had a lot of fun, but my old left hand pain (qwerty) became right hand pain, and the right hand pain was worse. I got a split keyboard, and that alone didn't seem to help. Now I'm a couple months into using workman, which notably has a very balanced hand usage. About 50/50, unlike qwerty which is mostly left, or dvorak which is mostly right. IIRC colemak and qgmlwb are similarly unbalanced, as it's not a goal of theirs to fix that. My best speed in qwerty was about 160, I got to the 140s in dvorak, and I'm 100-110 in workman at the moment. I'm not sure if I'll switch again. The balanced hand usage is a rare trait. If not for that issue, I was thinking of trying the halmak layout. I'm a little sad that workman is qwerty-like since I'd already bothered to unlearn that with dvorak, and so I had no qualms about most keys being different. I actually get some weird typos now, like typing "sad" instead of "saw" because of similar placement to qwerty on the left. I also change the layout on my phone with anysoftkeyboard. I've had at least 3 people tell me it's pointless on a touchscreen, but I like the consistency, and the layouts were already made and easy to switch to. If you use colemak, I hear the mod-dh variant is better, but workman solves the same problem, so I'd recommend just using it if you aren't already years into colemak.
deleted 6y ago
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0xb0565e486 6y ago
I learnt Colemak but I reverted to Qwerty as using what's used everywhere is just much more convenient.

77 points by harporoeder 6y ago

gedy 6y ago

I use Colemak and agree with the bias towards rolling on single hand (Colemak) vs alternating hands (Dvorak). Rolling doesn't feel natural to me. However, Colemak was much easier for me to learn though (I tried Dvorak first), and the ZXVC in same spot without tweaking shortcuts is a plus.

emodendroket 6y ago

My suspicion is that whatever efficiency gains are possible are going to be wiped out by the difficulty of learning a new system and then also not being able to readily have your preferred layout everywhere.

dheera 6y ago
I only have 1 data point but it took me about 2-3 weeks to touch type with Dvorak and I found friends who learned QWERTY took much longer, as much as half a year. I also was learning piano so that may have been a factor.
arafa 6y ago
I don't find myself to be any faster in Dvorak (70 wpm, like before) and from other users and people online, that seems to be typical. There are some possible gains at the high end, since from what I read most of the confirmed world record holders for typing speed use alternate layouts (for example, https://www.typing.com/blog/fastest-typists/ https://www.typing.com/blog/fastest-typists/).
1123581321 6y ago
Expect to take a few months to get back up to your old speed, perhaps a year to surpass it (not everyone does.) Whether this is a good investment depends on your age, if you have or will likely develop pain from typing QWERTY, and whether you’re able to learn an alternative layout during a time when quick typing isn’t as essential. If you need to regularly use other people’s computers, you’ll retain your ability to type in both layouts.
samus 6y ago
If you don't touch type, or if you already type at a fairly high WPM rate, then no, an optimized layout doesn't really matter. Personally, I have been learning to touch type and used the opportunity to use an optimized layout. I have recovered almost all the speed of non-blind Qwerty within a month and plan to stay. Not being able to use it everywhere is not a drawback to me. For those rare events where I cannot use it, I still have more than enough muscle memory for Qwerty.
tome 6y ago
For me the efficiency gains were not the point. The point was that changing to Dvorak massively decreased by RSI (although 20 years later I'm discovering that bodyweight strength training may have been even more effective). Not readily having the preferred layout available is a non-issue. Either I'm using a keyboard for less than ten minutes, in which case I hunt-and-peck on QWERTY, or I'm using it for longer, in which case I switch to Dvorak using the OS keyboard settings. It's never been a problem on Windows or Linux. I don't think I've used a Mac during that period but I imagine it's equally easy. As I recall the awkward learning period was between a week and a month. Twenty years later I've never regretted the time invested.
- emodendroket 6y ago
  I’ve found strength training far more effective for that than all the equipment money can buy, and I tried quite a bit of it.
goodpoint 6y ago
It took me a long time to gain speed on Dvorak and I'm not much faster than on Qwerty but the amount of effort required to type is significantly less - absolutely worth it.

1123581321 6y ago

Interesting data. I’ll just mention that if you are looking at changing layouts and are concerned about cut, copy, paste and undo, don’t be. Within a year it won’t bother you to be typing X, C and V with different fingers.

danpalmer 6y ago
Agreed, mostly. I used the Dvorak-Command-QWERTY layout on macOS for a long time, it's Dvorak but flips back to QWERTY when you hold Command so that most shortcuts are in the same physical position. After getting a programmable split keyboard it became too much work to get a similar thing to work so I decided to switch shortcuts to where they should be. It's been... ok. The positions of shortcuts definitely encode something that you lose, copy/paste not being next to each other is slightly annoying, and not to mention that some shortcuts move in such a way that the failure mode of getting the shortcut wrong is really bad (e.g. Cmd+, for preferences, get it wrong and you Cmd+W which closes the active window). I'm glad I've switched, but I'm also glad that I didn't switch my shortcuts at the same time that I switched to Dvorak, I think it could have been enough to put me off. Or I guess it might have been easier to do it all at once! One thing that is annoying with the hybrid approach is some software just doesn't support it (I'm looking at you JetBrains, with your 10 year old issue on your issue tracker).
- samus 6y ago
  The AutoHotkey Script I use on Windows works very well in almost all applications. But in IntelliJ on Windows (not in Linux) it happens multiple times per hour that Shift, Ctrl or Alt locks get engaged (which I didn't know even existed) or that the Script reverts to Qwerty without warning. Restarting the script helps, but it's so annoying that I consider running IntelliJ with an external JRE.
  - samus 6y ago
    Result: running IntelliJ with an external JDK didn't help :/

melling 6y ago

Xah first wrote this over a decade ago. He’s had some RSI issues, and the real problem is simply typing in any form. I remember reading several of his articles thinking that surely within a decade, we’d have better voice assist for programming. Tavis Rudd’s demo looked promising in 2013: https://youtu.be/8SkdfdXWYaI https://youtu.be/8SkdfdXWYaI I’m not sure what’s the best solution. Here are a few that I known of: https://serenade.ai/ https://serenade.ai/ https://talonvoice.com/ https://talonvoice.com/ https://voxhub.io/silvius https://voxhub.io/silvius

arafa 6y ago

Seems like a pretty good analysis. I've been using Dvorak for 20+ years also. The keyboard shortcuts thing is annoying, though I hadn't heard about the wrist strain they cause. I didn't see this discussed, but I actually find the fact that Colemak shares more keys with QWERTY to be a problem for learning if you already know QWERTY (even though that might be the biggest strength). Dvorak only shares the "A" and "M" with QWERTY, but typing those letters always confused my brain the most when learning, and sometimes I'd fall right back into QWERTY in a really frustrating way. I switched to Dvorak because of wrist strain/RSI issues. I was in pretty serious wrist pain and now I rarely have any. It probably wouldn't have been worth it otherwise, but that was a huge benefit to me. I'm not sure if other things would've helped since I didn't try a lot of other approaches first.

toyg 6y ago
> I switched to Dvorak because of wrist strain/RSI issues. I did the same with Colemak, and had the same effect. I think the main thing really is just to not use qwerty - that layout is just extrarodinarily unergonomic. It probably also helped that, around the same time I switched to Colemak, I took an interest in overall keyboard ergonomics, and invested in a split keyboard.

asimjalis 6y ago

As dictation technology gets better I suspect the keyboard will not be as relevant for entering English text. One area where dictation does not work well is writing code. Question: Is there a keyboard optimized for typing programming languages rather than for typing English?

wodenokoto 6y ago
Coming from a Nordic country where we use a version of ISO layout I would not go so far as to say that US-ansi layout is optimized for programming, but programming languages are definitely constructed around US-ansi.
hawthornio 6y ago
Code dictation should be entirely possible with language models. Need to understand how the write the code. But acquiring datasets for many languages and reducing latency may be difficult.
ezrast 6y ago
With the exception of Dvorak, every English-centric layout I've looked at (Colemak, Workman, Carpalx, probably a couple others) moves only the letters around, keeping punctuation in the same place as QWERTY. This means the right pinky is heavily overloaded for many/most common programming languages, which use far more punctuation than prose does. Dvorak moves several punctuation keys onto the left hand, which is great, but unfortunately it also moves braces and brackets farther away from the home row, which I found bad enough by itself to prompt me to look elsewhere. There's a variant called "Programmer Dvorak" which is somehow even worse. Aside from moving the numerals into ridiculous positions, now all the paired delimiters are on number keys but not in any consistent way. Both braces are on the left hand. Brackets and parentheses are on opposing hands, but, depending on how you slide your right hand up to the number row (7 and 8 are both natural resting places for the index finger), one pair will not be on corresponding fingers! And in general, I have a hard time touch-typing the middle part of the number row, so I don't like anything that puts common characters there. I've come to the conclusion that no, every common keyboard layout is bad for programming (for me). Eventually I gave up trying to find something suitable and made my own custom layout, which I've been using for a few years now.

cdaringe 6y ago

I'm a happy colemak user of 3 years. The h argument is pretty interesting. As an English only writer and a programmer, I did not personally find the remaining arguments compelling. But, this goes to show how complicated the selection process is, and appreciate the analysis nonetheless.

adrianN 6y ago

I use a modified English Dvorak layout where I put symbols that I use often to a nicer position and added Umlauts so that I can type German. For example Alt+j (the key) produces { and Alt+k produces }. Modifying keyboard layouts is simple enough that I don't see why I shouldn't adapt mine to suit me best. I don't type on other people's computers often enough that it matters that I have to hunt and peck there.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

I have used dvorak for around 15 years now, and I'm very happy with it. Took me 2-3 weeks to type as fast as in QWERTY, and hands feel way more relaxed and easy. For those who are afraid that it will somehow affect QWERTY typing speed, such fears are totally unfounded, I can type QWERTY as easily as I could before, just with some more strain compared to Dvorak. That said: - for developers, the typing speed is not the productivity bottleneck, so you are unlikely to see any real gains - hotkeys are generally a MESS, especially if you use 2 languages on a system. More so on Windows. Less so on Ubuntu.

weavie 6y ago
As a counterpoint, my ability to type on Qwerty is shot now that I am on Dvorak. I'm back to searching around on the keyboard with my eyes and tapping with single fingers. I feel sure people question my ability to work on computers when I have to go and fix something on their computers and spend ages just typing out basic stuff..
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  Maybe you weren't all that good with qwerty before? I always felt it's like learning an extra foreign language: learning French doesn't make your German worse.
  - andrewzah 6y ago
    YMMV but after 3-4 weeks of dvorak, I actually did have difficulties when using qwerty. I gave up dvorak because I don't want to have to modify every keyboard/system I'm on, as opposed to just sitting down at a terminal and getting work done.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      I think you might have tried a bit more. I'm typing this on my wife's qwerty laptop and have zero issues with blind typing on it, just a little more strain from having to move fingers more that it is possible on Dvorak.

colmanhumphrey 6y ago

Good to discuss, but I'm not 100% sure about some of the points here. - The `h` problem is purely about moving your index finger, so I don't think it makes sense to talk about the bigram being popular. The relevant number is just how many `h`s people have to type in general - Shortcuts staying the same: saying that there exists a variant of Dvorak created to do this too is a huge point in favour of Colemak. The point is so good that people modified a 70 year old layout to match it! How popular is this variant? - Saying that Colemak is bad because of Vim, then saying it's good because of CapsLock/Backspace BUT that doesn't really count because you can also do this reprogramming with Dvorak: can you not also change Vim? Maybe this is much harder

samus 6y ago
Vim is relevant because it is not always possible to customize it. Think of hardened servers or containers. Also, it's an editor of last resort on most Unix systems. It's worth discussing whether nano should take this place instead. Much more tricky are applications that have hardcoded hotkeys, or who listen to an unholy mix of keys and scancodes. Uncommon nowadays (many games are not great at this), but still sucks if it happens.
messo 6y ago
I use the default keymapping for Vim with Colemak (Norwegian) and find it a pleasant experience. The up/down movement is reversed, but I got used to it pretty quickly.

poidos 6y ago

[I don't use either layout and don't have much wrist strain / any RSI] I wonder how much of the benefit from using these alternate layouts is due solely to the layout, as opposed to some combination of the layout and better awareness of correct ergonomics, using stretching and warmup techniques, etc. Hard to quantify of course. Would love to hear from anyone that switched to one of these layouts but didn't make any other changes in their wrist health otherwise.

jeromenerf 6y ago
I would like data on this too. I use Dvorak on keyboards and QWERTY on touch screens. I find QWERTY difficult to touch for all the obvious reasons but actually pretty good for 2 to 4 fingers typing on a iPhone / iPad. I have seen people typing faster than I do with only 4 fingers and their thumbs, usually with a machine gun style. Dvorak is (great for | forcing you into) touch typing, except that right pinky overuse. It feels good but you don’t really have a choice. My wife doesn’t touch type and is bent over the keyboard, looking down at the keys. Dvorak would not help her until she relaxes down on her chair, and type with more fingers and without looking.
hawthornio 6y ago
Purely anecdotal, but I switched to Dvorak for ~6 months in middle school and much preferred it to Qwerty. Now that I’ve spent more years having Qwerty drilled into my brain I’m hesitant to make a switch.
- goodpoint 6y ago
  I switched to Dvorak after some 12 years of Qwerty. It took ages and was still 100% worth it.
rgoulter 6y ago
Learned Dvorak when I was in university; reverted to qwerty sometime after that for some reason. I think because the typematrix I was using broke. Picked Dvorak up again about a year ago after getting one of those fancy ortholinear keyboards. My qwerty was a quick 'undisciplined' hunt-and-peck. (e.g. typing the 'y' in 'your' with the left hand finger). Dvorak was trained with the 'discipline' of each finger being assigned to a column. Qwerty feels somewhat disorganised and chaotic compared do Dvorak (even on the same keyboard). Dvorak feels more comfortable.

kbrwn 6y ago

Colemak user since I taught myself one summer (2012) by spending the first 20 minutes after waking up typing in vim-tutor. I made the switch because I could not stop looking at the keys on QWERTY keyboards no matter what I tried even with blank keys I would look down out of habit. I tried Dvorak and it felt so unnatural. The common key letters for commands were completely in foreign places that I could not get used to at all. After 2 wks of barely getting past 30 wpm on Dvorak I switched to colemak I was able to beat my QWERTY typing speed after only 2 wks of studying and now I can type 200+ words per minutes with over 90% accuracy thinking about spelling slows be down more than anything else. If you are under 30 I suggest you give an alt keyboard layout a shot. Older than that and the time to learn Colemak/Dvorak vs just improving your QWERTY speed/accuracy might not be worth it.

adrianN 6y ago
If you type at 90% accuracy, do you go back through your text to fix all the typos or do rely on some kind of automation to do that for you? I don't type particularly fast, but every time I tried increasing my speed my accuracy suffers sufficiently that going back and correcting mistakes takes more time than typing a bit slower.
- kbrwn 6y ago
  200wpm and 90% accuracy is my result from typing tests while using vi-tutor. In real world scenario I would type slower (closer to 120wpm) to be sure I spell and punctuate without having to backspace or use autocorrect.
melling 6y ago
“I switched to colemak I was able to beat my QWERTY typing speed after only 2 wks of studying and now I can type 200+ words per minutes” If it only takes a few weeks then wouldn’t people of almost any age benefit if they type 4-5 hours a day?
- kbrwn 6y ago
  My experience learning a new keyboard layout was at age 19 an I was not typing for more than a few hours a day. It takes much longer to both break old habits and form new ones from older ages. If you have been typing for 20+ years in QWERTY and use a keyboard everyday professionally learning a new layout will likely be a very hard and frustrating task. Every time you switch back to QWERTY you are basically reversing the practice you have put in. If you are typing for a profession you likely won't want to suffer months of half your former typing speed or less until you catch up.

valarauko 6y ago

Does anybody have recommendations for a layout that works well for a split keyboard (Moonlander, in my case, as and when it arrives)? Learning a split configuration will require work, so may as well learn a better layout at the same time.

adrianN 6y ago
Every layout works for a split layout just as well as for a normal layout. You're not supposed to move your hands around either way.
- toyg 6y ago
  This is the right answer. With proper touchtyping technique, the split does not matter. I use Colemak with my Kinesis split keyboards but that's irrelevant.
- valarauko 6y ago
  I'm sure that's true, though as a person who currently hunts & pecks, even touch typing would be an upgrade. I'm trying to roll all of the improvements to my typing behaviour into a single month of hell :)
bambambazooka 6y ago
I've been using Colemak on a Ergodox since September of last year and am very happy with it. I too switched to Colemak when I started using my Ergodox. The first weeks my head hurt, but now I'm fine.
michelledepeil 6y ago
I tried dvorak on the moonlander (and have typed dvorak for a looong time before that on regular keebs), but ended up going back to qwerty, and using a layer for the punctuation surrounding the letters. This way you make the most use of the linear layout in the up-down direction, but avoid too much sideways movement and pinky stretching. Check it out here: https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/MJXZ4/latest/0 https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/MJXZ4/latest/0 You might move the punctuation even more central to really keep it 4-columned.

sourcevault 6y ago

meh, kids use Colemak / Dvorak, it's time to upgrade. My current 'superior' keyboard layout : https://sourcevault.github.io/resume/key10.png https://sourcevault.github.io/resume/key10.png

limeblack 6y ago

> There are Dvorak with QWERTY-shortcuts layout, that comes with Linux This is not accurate really. This used to be the default but at least with Ubuntu/Debian you need 3rd part software. Which means this statement holds true for windows also.

tbenst 6y ago

I prefer the quantitative approach taken by Carpalx [1]. This analysis finds that Dvorak and Colemak are both substantially better than QWERTY, but Colemak has the edge. [1] http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives

Taikonerd 6y ago
I think the main take-away from that link is "either option is much better than QWERTY." So, if you're trying to decide between Colemak and Dvorak, remember that you're basically guaranteed to win -- either choice is a big improvement!
limeblack 6y ago
If you type alternative languages Dvorak vowel constant alternation makes more sense long term in my experience.
goodpoint 6y ago
Colemak has worse hand alternation than Dvorak and Carpalx does not account properly for this.
pinouchon 6y ago
I'm using the qgmlwy layout for a few years now, pretty happy with it. I remapped caps & added a new modifier to have a "special chars" layer and it works pretty well. Overall it's more trouble than it's worth, if I had to redo the whole journey, I would simply learn to touch-type with querty (maybe colemak), but I'm still happy with the end result.

Taikonerd 6y ago

I taught myself Colemak last summer, as a pandemic project. If anyone is interested in learning, I recommend the "Tarmak" transitional layouts [1]. It's 5 intermediate layouts to transition from QWERTY to Colemak. Each only changes a few keys. So, rather than 1 big change (where you basically can't touch-type for a month) you have 5 little changes that you can learn over a weekend each. [1] https://forum.colemak.com/topic/1858-learn-colemak-in-steps-with-the-tarmak-layouts/ https://forum.colemak.com/topic/1858-learn-colemak-in-steps-...

helianer 6y ago
Tarmak is what finally allowed me to switch away from QWERTY. Prior to tarmak I couldn’t deal with the massive productivity loss that I would initially encounter with Dvorak and I would eventually switch back. The fact that initially steps are the highest impact really helps too.

mumblemumble 6y ago

So, for RSI, I have an alternative hypothesis. My issues are only with my right hand. I'm pretty sure the problem is not QWERTY, it's just the ]'/ keys. Having that one extra column of keys to reach across in order to get to the enter and shift keys means my right hand experiences a lot more wrist movement and stretching than my left hand does. (I find hitting the enter key on an ANSI keyboard to be irritating enough that I'm frankly impressed that anyone tolerates ISO keyboards.) I'm currently giving an ultra-minimalist keyboard, the Atreus, a shot. I'm still in the adjustment period, but it seems to be promising, and a much smaller adjustment than abandoning QWERTY entirely. Bonus points for not being the size of an aircraft carrier, like most ergo keyboards are.

CarVac 6y ago
Extra small boards, I contend, do not help for QWERTY because the layout inherently makes you reach all the time. I use a 46-key Mitosis (non-split custom version) with Dvorak and greatly enjoy how little I need to reach with my fingers.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  It might depend on the specific problem a person has. I've never had discomfort with the actual letter keys on QWERTY, and definitely don't feel like I'm having to "reach" to get them. Where, to me, "reach" implies anything that's outside the comfortable range of motion. For example, on a standard QWERTY keyboard, I find the number keys, the Y key, and the brackets to be a reach. Dvorak actually makes that situation a bit worse for me. It moves a somewhat more frequent letter, F, into the Y key's position, and it moves the brackets further away in order to put keys that I use less often in a more accessible position. But that's me. I'd guess that this sort of thing varies a lot from person to person, because we all have different hands.
- spacemanmatt 6y ago
  I get great mileage out of the Apple keyboard+number pad. Low profile, short, low-resistance key travel, great key density/spacing for my hands at least. It's a lot to like for a low-impact typist.

toyg 6y ago

The point about programming languages is fairly irrelevant; the truth is that basically all layouts are bad for programmers, since they inevitably put special characters at the margins, which are hard to reach. I have a short pinkie so it's extra hard for me. The answer is to use a meta key to add a layer dedicated to those - CapsLock is great for that. I did that last year [0], although I now wish I had that meta-key available on the right side too (I don't want to mess with the traditional Ctrl and Alt, too many programs have shortcuts hard-bound to those). With that extra layer, you can go to town and use the home row for the stuff you really need in your preferred language(s). As for simple text layouts, I never warmed to Dvorak but picked up Colemak very quickly, and now I just can't look back. [0] http://blog.pythonaro.com/2020/06/better-access-to-special-characters.html http://blog.pythonaro.com/2020/06/better-access-to-special-c...

Syzygies 6y ago
Yes. The rabbit hole that took for me was writing my own firmware using QMK. Make every key close to home row a tap/hold key accessing either modifier keys or extra layers. My fingers finally travel much less (the apparent promise of Dvorak/Colemak) but for the actual work of programming and operating a computuer. https://github.com/Syzygies/log_folders/blob/master/keyboards/fc660c/keymap.png https://github.com/Syzygies/log_folders/blob/master/keyboard...
- enragedcacti 6y ago
  yup! A really affordable entry into this that I've found is Epomaker keyboards. I struggled to find the exact layout I wanted in an affordable QMK keyboard. Their software sucks but it works and profiles are stored to the keyboard so it can come with you wherever. They also have split space-bar and 3 space-bar options which is really nice for adding modifier keys beyond Caps-lock or rebinding backspace or escape into a more comfortable position. I realize this is starting to sound like an ad, but my biggest challenge getting into fully reprogrammable keyboards was the huge price tag once you start narrowing features. In my case, a 60% keyboard that retained arrow keys would have been $200+ for a QMK supported model. The Epomaker I picked up was $65 or so.
6y ago

jeromenerf 6y ago

I use Dvorak on keyboards and qwerty on touch screens. I am pretty happy with both, but it doesn’t matter a lot regarding my eventual wrist or tendinitis pain. What’s is important for me is drinking water sufficiently, regular exercise, a good posture, a good keyboard then finally the layout. I picked up Dvorak for no real reason 10 years ago; I kept up with it but would not really recommend it, specially because of its intense reliance on the right pinky. I don’t know much about Colemak.

nayuki 6y ago

Been using Dvorak full time since 2004, very happy with it, never looked back at QWERTY. I wrote a long self-interview here: https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak One new point that I haven't worked into the article is the fact that many keyboard shortcuts require a Right Ctrl key or else they can't be done on one hand. At the same time, many laptops on the market omit the Right Ctrl key, to my utter frustration. Manufacturers need to stop messing with keyboard layouts! Even my humble 13-inch Lenovo ThinkPad X220 from year 2012 had a pretty good layout while being compact, while newer machines keep making keyboards worse despite having the same physical dimensions.

limeblack 6y ago
Most can be done with one hand on a Mac but I do know what you mean.
1MachineElf 6y ago
The X220 keyboard is the holy grail of laptop keyboards as far as I'm concerned. In addition to what you mention, it's got a big fat Escape key that's nice for vi users. This keys has shrunk on newer and competing laptop keyboards, so I've since resorted to exchanging Caps Lock for Escape. The blatant Qwerty-centrism of Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+C, and Ctrl+V is quite annoying for many Dvorak users. In my case, I was looking to cure more than RSI, so before learning Dvorak I incidentally also learned to use a left hand mouse. Combined with Dvorak, theses shortcuts are easier. They're also doubly easier with a left-hand trackball mouse, because you can hold Ctrl down with your left thumb while you control the trackball with your left index/middle fingers, and hit Z/X/C/V, all simultaneously.
- nayuki 6y ago
  Mostly agreed. Regarding X220, I also like its decently arranged block of Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys and dedicated volume buttons (whereas other laptop keyboards may require Function Lock or Fn). And it has a Context Menu key, which I actually use; many manufacturers (including later Lenovo) think it's superfluous and silently omit it. Regarding the QWERTY-centrism of Ctrl+ZXCV, I have absolutely no problem with their Dvorak equivalents and can touch-type these shortcuts without looking at the keyboard. But I must, must, must have a Right Ctrl key to do this effectively. Just for reference for QWERTY people out there, Dvorak ZXCV is equivalent to QWERTY Slash,B,I,Period. For example, Ctrl+C in Dvorak has the same position as Ctrl+I in QWERTY. I would put my left pinky on I and left thumb (or index finger) on Right Ctrl. And I would put my right hand on the mouse to select text or files or draw.

SkyPuncher 6y ago

I've been using Colemak for 5+ years now. I spent a lot of time researching layouts before I committed to one. My conclusion on efficiency was (1) nobody really knows because everyone types differently (2) raw speed isn't important since most typing I do involves pauses to think. Dvorak and Colemak would both solve a huge problem for me. Qwerty requires a lot of extreme row movements that were causing me a lot of hand pain. Both Dvorak and Colemak move a significant amount of typing to the home row and eliminate a lot of the movement directly between the extremes of the rows. Choosing an extreme, anecdote, a word like minimum alternates between the top and bottom row between every letter on Qwerty. On Colemak, minimum there's only one extreme jump u => m. I've found that this tends to hold true for much of what I type. I personally choose Colemak because I liked the transition process a bit easier. The base layout is closer to Qwerty and you can pick a few keys to transition at a time.

joshkaufman 6y ago

I've been a happy Colemak user since 2012. One of the first things I do when I get a new computer is rearrange the physical keys, which is a significant advantage of Apple non-butterfly keyboards. [1] Aside from less overall movement while typing, Colemak keeps many common keyboard shortcuts the same. The first few hours are very frustrating, but the overall time-to-competence is short. There's a lot of upside and little downside. I wrote about the process of learning Colemak in my book on skill acquisition, and posted a summary of the process and the tools/techniques I used on the book's website. [2] [1] https://twitter.com/joshkaufman/status/1334632614368583680 https://twitter.com/joshkaufman/status/1334632614368583680 [2] https://first20hours.com/typing/ https://first20hours.com/typing/

Faaak 6y ago
You should _not_ rearrange the keys when learning a new layout, because then you won't train your muscular memory and it will be worse in the end
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  Having to resort to trial-and-error to find the correct key is painful and completely debilitating. You can still develop muscle memory if the labels are correct.
arh68 6y ago
You're so right about [1], when possible. I should've rearranged them years ago on this mid-2012 MBA 11" .. maybe I should actually do that, today. I'm quite used to 104-key qwerty boards, but if all my keyboards could say aoeui they totally would. For those chiding the practice, it's not for beginners-still-learning, it's for actual-years-running-users trying to type one-handed once in a while. As for looking at a qwerty keyboard from a dvorak mindset, I'd say dvorak "wins" in my head like my right eye's image wins over my left. I look down and "see" aoeui .. pyf .. dhtns. But it's still confusing. The programmer in me wants a numpad for () [] {} +-/*^% &c. (Do any exist, off the shelf, I wonder?)

jccalhoun 6y ago

Do people really type non-stop long enough to make any of the speed gains actually significant? Even when I was writing my dissertation I would rarely type more than a couple sentences at a time and even then I often had to back space because of a typo or something. If you have some kind of RSI and it helps then it would make sense but at least for me it doesn't make sense for the way I type.

valarauko 6y ago
I had RSI issues crop up when I was writing my PhD thesis - a lot of hurried, last minute typing where typos be damned. I'm also mostly hunt and peck, so touch typing would have probably resolved most of my issues.
carabiner 6y ago
It's not for speed, it's for comfort/safety. You can type 100 WPM with two fingers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqyiyh_hrUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqyiyh_hrUs This comes up in every HN post.
spacemanmatt 6y ago
> If you have some kind of RSI and it helps then it would make sense I think it makes way more sense to consider the risk and the odds of getting a RSI from qwerty vs. dvorak and take preventative action. You don't want to suffer a learning curve on the rehab side of an RSI, while also kicking yourself in the posterior for something that was avoidable.
- imiric 6y ago
  I feel like more important and easier measures anyone can take to prevent RSI that doesn't involve learning a new keyboard layout are ergonomic: ensure you have a good chair/posture, use a wrist rest (these are debatable, but I couldn't type without one), and avoid taking your hands off the keyboard (don't use a mouse if possible). I've been using QWERTY for decades now, and for years have used a ThinkPad keyboard with a TrackPoint instead of a mouse, use a mostly hotkey-driven workflow, and a wrist rest even on a laptop. Anecdotal, but I've rarely experienced strain and can type comfortably for hours. I know QWERTY is demonstrably worse, but so far I haven't had the need to try another layout. The downsides of losing my current muscle memory, having to remap hotkeys and not being productive on other computers don't seem worth it to me.

kbd 6y ago

Learning Dvorak was one of the best decisions I've made in my career/life. It took a few weeks of effort to get back up to parity with Qwerty but it's paid off for decades.

aendruk 6y ago

I’ve been happily using Colemak for 10+ years but recently decided to give Halmak [1] a try. Only a month in so I’m still slow, but it feels really good. For programming, though, the best decision I’ve made was to add a numpad and common symbols [2] under a second “shift” key to keep my hands on the home row. [1]: https://github.com/MadRabbit/halmak https://github.com/MadRabbit/halmak [2]: https://andrew.kvalhe.im/+qit9y6o8uodxpiqezpxcaw7css6gtfkp https://andrew.kvalhe.im/+qit9y6o8uodxpiqezpxcaw7css6gtfkp

marshallward 6y ago

It would have helped if they compared Dvorak to Colemak mod dh variant. It addresses many of the issues raised here by moving D below T and H below N, and moving the more rare K and G as left-right motions.

inter_netuser 6y ago

Amazingly high prevalence of Colemak in this thread. I'd expect it to be marginal.

messo 6y ago

As long as you do not use QWERTY, you'll be fine :) I have used Colemak for the last 12 years and have never looked back. I started learning Dvorak, but at the time I was using the ctrl+Z/C/V quite much and Colemak became my compromise. Now that I use Vim, the argument about the Z/C/V is not as important anymore. EDIT: Oh, I also used the Q/W (quit, close window) quite much back then because I was using a mac. Still use these in Sway to this day. I also really like that there is a Norwegian Colemak-layout available in Linux by default. Not sure if this is the case in Windows or macOS these days, but it wasn't 12 years ago.

CraigJPerry 6y ago

Xah Lee’s site and videos were really handy for me, i fired a few $$$ his way to say thanks for his efforts. My journey went: 1. Qwerty 2. Dvorak (liked the left right alternation, the fact its available on all OS’s, disliked the common keys on weaker fingers) 2. Colemak mod dk (don’t like rolling, alternating is just more natural, easy to go faster) 3. Halmak - favourite of the lot 4. Halmak + home row mod keys 5. Qwerty + gacs 6. Qwerty + gasc - just worked better than gacs for me Then there was the detour through hardware, zsa moonlander was the most interesting. Very nice key caps. The bad news is that it’s all been for naught. I’m back to touch typing qwerty on a g915. I am using AHK and mimicing Xah Lee’s external keypad idea with the num lock toggle - undo, redo, cut copy paste, all single key actions rather than chords.

creese 6y ago

Dvorak is suboptimal for the command-line. Try typing 'ls -l'.

notretarded 6y ago
ll

odiroot 6y ago

I'm a happy user of Colemak for over a year. Although it took me a few months to get used to it. One disadvantage though is, now I have trouble typing on QWERTY.

hajile 6y ago
I carry around a vortex Pok3r keyboard. It has builtin colmak, so I can plug it into whatever computer and go (I've been thinking about getting a 40% keyboard, but losing the number row is a huge step).
- odiroot 6y ago
  That's a great tip, thanks!

nashashmi 6y ago

I can’t get pass breaking keyboard shortcuts with new keyboards. If only there was a way to revert to QWERTY when ctrl alt win were pressed

haikur 6y ago

Just pick one. A 5% typing speed increase won't make you a better programmer.

spiznnx 6y ago

I've been using Colemak for 6 years now. Although not faster, it's much more comfortable, especially in the wrists. Along with frequently switching between mousing, a tented+split keyboard, and remapping programming punctuation on a third layer with QMK, I'm very glad I made the investment to reduce the chance of developing an RSI.

chias 6y ago

I used Dvorak for a couple years before switching back in the mid-2010s. Back then my QWERTY speed was about 120 wpm, and I never got close to that on Dvorak, but really the only time I can even think at 120 wpm is when arguing on the internet so maybe that's not altogether a bad thing. I was never as fast, but typing was a lot more comfortable in general. I ended up switching back due to work computer restrictions (grad student) at the time. I just switched back to Dvorak, and while it's been a solid six years, it's coming back reasonably quickly :) I forgot how much I enjoyed this layout.

opan 6y ago

I used dvorak for about a year and a half. I had a lot of fun, but my old left hand pain (qwerty) became right hand pain, and the right hand pain was worse. I got a split keyboard, and that alone didn't seem to help. Now I'm a couple months into using workman, which notably has a very balanced hand usage. About 50/50, unlike qwerty which is mostly left, or dvorak which is mostly right. IIRC colemak and qgmlwb are similarly unbalanced, as it's not a goal of theirs to fix that. My best speed in qwerty was about 160, I got to the 140s in dvorak, and I'm 100-110 in workman at the moment. I'm not sure if I'll switch again. The balanced hand usage is a rare trait. If not for that issue, I was thinking of trying the halmak layout. I'm a little sad that workman is qwerty-like since I'd already bothered to unlearn that with dvorak, and so I had no qualms about most keys being different. I actually get some weird typos now, like typing "sad" instead of "saw" because of similar placement to qwerty on the left. I also change the layout on my phone with anysoftkeyboard. I've had at least 3 people tell me it's pointless on a touchscreen, but I like the consistency, and the layouts were already made and easy to switch to. If you use colemak, I hear the mod-dh variant is better, but workman solves the same problem, so I'd recommend just using it if you aren't already years into colemak.

deleted 6y ago

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0xb0565e486 6y ago

I learnt Colemak but I reverted to Qwerty as using what's used everywhere is just much more convenient.