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> That is because Polish allies did not react to Hitler's invasion You mean, except triggering WWII in the West? > Poland was given to Stalin to become USSR's

by shakow 6y ago

> That is because Polish allies did not react to Hitler's invasion You mean, except triggering WWII in the West? > Poland was given to Stalin to become USSR's satellite What would you have proposed; launch WWIII?

captainredbeard 6y ago
Patton was a fan of doing exactly that: he was probably right. If the USSR had been aborted early on, look at all the suffering that would have been avoided (Holodrome, etc.)
- shakow 6y ago
  > Patton was a fan of doing exactly that: he was probably right Yeah, sure, good luck beating the RKKA in 1945. No A-bombs ready, industry centers are behind the Urals and untouchable by the allied air power; absolutely 0 support from the civilian populations in the West, whereas the Soviet civilian population would be galvanized by the backstabbing; the UK is already at the end of its manpower; the US would be fighting an ocean behind its logistic base; the RKKA is in full swing in Europe and overwhelming the WAllies in the ETO in men and material; best case is the WAllies get thrown to the Atlantic and a white peace is signed, worst case ends in a nuclear apocalypse. Operation Unthinkable is very fun in wargaming, but it doesn't hold water in practice. > look at all the suffering that would have been avoided (Holodrome, etc.) The Holodomor that happened 10 years BEFORE 1945? Do you even have any idea what you're talking about?
  - captainredbeard 6y ago
    ...thank you for the correction Holodomor timing.
    - publicola1990 6y ago
      Also 'Holodomor' is somewhat of a political creation. Recent authoritative biography of Stalin by Stephen Kotkin, for example states that the early 1930s famine was a pan-soviet famine, not restricted to Ukraine or any specific ethnic region.
- EvilEy3 6y ago
  Do you know where I can read about this? Book, if possible?
  - captainredbeard 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable
thehappypm 6y ago
Poland was invaded in September 1939. France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg were invaded in May 1940. Only then did the allies really start to fight back. Polish allies did nothing until France was invaded. I agree there was not really a great solution after WW2 for Poland, the Iron Curtain was basically inevitable given how shaky the alliance between the USSR and the West was.
- shakow 6y ago
  > Polish allies did nothing until France was invaded You know what, just draw us a battle plan in which the WAllies beat Germany in 1939, that would revolutionize the academic understanding of early WWII.
  - thehappypm 6y ago
    I don't know what the right action would be, but the action taken -- essentially do nothing -- was clearly the wrong move and led to Germany taking over Western Europe for several years.
    - bryondowd 6y ago
      Perhaps doing nothing was the best move. Perhaps making a move would have resulted in Germany focusing more on the Western front and maintaining good relations with Russia. Very different conflict at that point. Without the losses on the Eastern front, perhaps Germany is able to fend off a French and British offensive, and end up invading both France and Britain.
    - shakow 6y ago
      > but the action taken -- essentially do nothing -- was clearly the wrong move What was the right move then? Please detail. Would it be an “attaque à outrance” with an unready French army and an embryonic BEF against fortified German positions, with neatly inferior air forces, not enough siege artillery to break the Siegried line, a flimsy logistic branch, and following a totally hurried plan due to an uncooperative Belgium which screwed up all pre-war planning? And all that within a nation which already suffered humongous and material human losses barely 20 years before and could not really afford the same thing again, neither from a political nor a practical perspective if it was to handle a long war. No, I argue that even with hindsight, globally, the right call was made: there was absolutely no way to save a Poland which happily sacrificed every opportunity to get military allies less than 1,500km away during the whole interwar period; the only playable hand was to bet on a long, tracted war where the French and the British could economically strangle Germany like they did in 1918 and free Poland afterwards – implicating, on the ground, turtling behind the border defenses long enough for the blockade to do its job. Problem: (i) Belgium royally screwing up the plan, (ii) USSR joining the waltz, (iii) the incredibly lucky strike of the Germans in the Ardennes. Sometimes, the only winning move is not to play.
matkoniecz 6y ago
> You mean, except triggering WWII in the West? They started doing something substantial after France was invaded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War the Phoney period began with the declaration of war by the United Kingdom and France against Nazi Germany on 3 September 1939, after which little actual warfare occurred, and ended with the German invasion of France and the Low Countries on 10 May 1940. Although there was no large-scale military action by Britain and France, they did begin some economic warfare, especially with the naval blockade, and shut down German surface raiders. They created elaborate plans for numerous large-scale operations designed to cripple the German war effort. These included opening an Anglo-French front in the Balkans, invading Norway to seize control of Germany's main source of iron ore and a strike against the Soviet Union, to cut off its supply of oil to Germany. Only the Norway plan came to fruition, and by April 1940, it was too little, too late.
somedude895 6y ago
> You mean, except triggering WWII in the West? I think they meant Poland was promised support in case of an attack and ended up getting screwed over by all their supposed allies, who after the war didn't even have the decency of trying to help them regain their independency.
helij 6y ago
Why are these historical facts being voted down?
- matkoniecz 6y ago
  "You mean, except triggering WWII in the West?" is technically true but highly misleading. Second is an opinion, not a fact.

by shakow 6y ago

captainredbeard 6y ago

Patton was a fan of doing exactly that: he was probably right. If the USSR had been aborted early on, look at all the suffering that would have been avoided (Holodrome, etc.)

shakow 6y ago
> Patton was a fan of doing exactly that: he was probably right Yeah, sure, good luck beating the RKKA in 1945. No A-bombs ready, industry centers are behind the Urals and untouchable by the allied air power; absolutely 0 support from the civilian populations in the West, whereas the Soviet civilian population would be galvanized by the backstabbing; the UK is already at the end of its manpower; the US would be fighting an ocean behind its logistic base; the RKKA is in full swing in Europe and overwhelming the WAllies in the ETO in men and material; best case is the WAllies get thrown to the Atlantic and a white peace is signed, worst case ends in a nuclear apocalypse. Operation Unthinkable is very fun in wargaming, but it doesn't hold water in practice. > look at all the suffering that would have been avoided (Holodrome, etc.) The Holodomor that happened 10 years BEFORE 1945? Do you even have any idea what you're talking about?
- captainredbeard 6y ago
  ...thank you for the correction Holodomor timing.
  - publicola1990 6y ago
    Also 'Holodomor' is somewhat of a political creation. Recent authoritative biography of Stalin by Stephen Kotkin, for example states that the early 1930s famine was a pan-soviet famine, not restricted to Ukraine or any specific ethnic region.
EvilEy3 6y ago
Do you know where I can read about this? Book, if possible?
- captainredbeard 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

thehappypm 6y ago

Poland was invaded in September 1939. France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg were invaded in May 1940. Only then did the allies really start to fight back. Polish allies did nothing until France was invaded. I agree there was not really a great solution after WW2 for Poland, the Iron Curtain was basically inevitable given how shaky the alliance between the USSR and the West was.

shakow 6y ago
> Polish allies did nothing until France was invaded You know what, just draw us a battle plan in which the WAllies beat Germany in 1939, that would revolutionize the academic understanding of early WWII.
- thehappypm 6y ago
  I don't know what the right action would be, but the action taken -- essentially do nothing -- was clearly the wrong move and led to Germany taking over Western Europe for several years.
  - bryondowd 6y ago
    Perhaps doing nothing was the best move. Perhaps making a move would have resulted in Germany focusing more on the Western front and maintaining good relations with Russia. Very different conflict at that point. Without the losses on the Eastern front, perhaps Germany is able to fend off a French and British offensive, and end up invading both France and Britain.
  - shakow 6y ago
    > but the action taken -- essentially do nothing -- was clearly the wrong move What was the right move then? Please detail. Would it be an “attaque à outrance” with an unready French army and an embryonic BEF against fortified German positions, with neatly inferior air forces, not enough siege artillery to break the Siegried line, a flimsy logistic branch, and following a totally hurried plan due to an uncooperative Belgium which screwed up all pre-war planning? And all that within a nation which already suffered humongous and material human losses barely 20 years before and could not really afford the same thing again, neither from a political nor a practical perspective if it was to handle a long war. No, I argue that even with hindsight, globally, the right call was made: there was absolutely no way to save a Poland which happily sacrificed every opportunity to get military allies less than 1,500km away during the whole interwar period; the only playable hand was to bet on a long, tracted war where the French and the British could economically strangle Germany like they did in 1918 and free Poland afterwards – implicating, on the ground, turtling behind the border defenses long enough for the blockade to do its job. Problem: (i) Belgium royally screwing up the plan, (ii) USSR joining the waltz, (iii) the incredibly lucky strike of the Germans in the Ardennes. Sometimes, the only winning move is not to play.

matkoniecz 6y ago

> You mean, except triggering WWII in the West? They started doing something substantial after France was invaded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War the Phoney period began with the declaration of war by the United Kingdom and France against Nazi Germany on 3 September 1939, after which little actual warfare occurred, and ended with the German invasion of France and the Low Countries on 10 May 1940. Although there was no large-scale military action by Britain and France, they did begin some economic warfare, especially with the naval blockade, and shut down German surface raiders. They created elaborate plans for numerous large-scale operations designed to cripple the German war effort. These included opening an Anglo-French front in the Balkans, invading Norway to seize control of Germany's main source of iron ore and a strike against the Soviet Union, to cut off its supply of oil to Germany. Only the Norway plan came to fruition, and by April 1940, it was too little, too late.

somedude895 6y ago

> You mean, except triggering WWII in the West? I think they meant Poland was promised support in case of an attack and ended up getting screwed over by all their supposed allies, who after the war didn't even have the decency of trying to help them regain their independency.

helij 6y ago

Why are these historical facts being voted down?

matkoniecz 6y ago
"You mean, except triggering WWII in the West?" is technically true but highly misleading. Second is an opinion, not a fact.