4 ms·

>Well, if you had to manufacture a simple Arduino in the US or Europe today, it would be impossible. I think you have no idea what you're talking about. In Eur

>Well, if you had to manufacture a simple Arduino in the US or Europe today, it would be impossible. I think you have no idea what you're talking about. In Europe at least, there are plenty of fabs that make microcontrollers like the Arduino. And the original Arduino boards (w)are made in Italy which last I checked is still in Europe. >Much as is the case for masks, the raw components needed to make such a product are not made in the US and Europe. In Europe we have also plenty of factories making FFP2 masks (my favorite ones I can buy in Austria ATM come from a brand made in the Czech Republic).

yulaow 6y ago
I think, but I am not sure, that parent was talking about the whole production chain, from raw materials to end product. For what I remember some(most?) components of arduinos are imported from outside EU. Correct me if I am wrong.
- hef19898 6y ago
  True local self sustainability stopped being a thing in the bronze age.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >For what I remember some(most?) components of arduinos are imported from outside EU So what? A third of iphone components are imported from outside of china. No competitive economy is 100% self sustainable.
- robomartin 6y ago
  I am using an Arduino as a simple example. Anyone can look-up the components used to make one, go through the exercise of sourcing them and gain an understanding of supply chain realities in this way. Generally speaking, products with greater complexity illustrate this problem far better. The problem is it would be impossible for the a reader on HN to dig into this reality due to not having access to the bill of materials, etc. I have never said I am pushing for a 100% localized supply chain. That would be preposterous. Silly. However, the reality we navigate today isn't good at all. Last year showed the world what can happen. China is nearly at a 100% single-source position. This varies from industry to industry. And, of course, they are not saying "we have enough, let's stop here", they are laser-focused on bringing in as much business as possible and will absorb as much of the supply chain as possible. What they have done is admirable and nothing less than remarkable. I don't fault or hate them for it. They work hard and deliver results. They deserve to be where they are.
robomartin 6y ago
I think you need to read what I wrote more carefully. I try to be precise with my language. Simple exercise: The bill of materials for Arduino boards is publicly available. Pick a board. Now go source every single component on that board. Create two spreadsheets. The first would have you source what you can from China. The second would source from any EU country and the US if you'd like and exclude any Chinese made component from the list. My prediction: You can make 100% of an Arduino in China using Chinese components. You cannot make an Arduino in Europe or the US without Chinese components. Let's add another layer to this. Let's say you create a third spreadsheet where you source as many components (and services) as possible from the US and Europe and whatever you can't you get from China. Now calculate the cost for each case: China only. US/EU only. US/EU + necessary Chinese components and services. Prediction: The US/EU cost --if it is even possible to do it-- will easily double or triple the cost of that product. The US/EU + China cost won't be competitive at all because the vast majority of the items will have to come from China and you will incur additional costs for producing in the US/EU rather than just facing reality and having the product made entirely in China. Please note that I am using an Arduino as a super-simple example for the sake of an illustration. It would be wrong to engage in dissecting this simple illustration tool in an attempt to invalidate my claim. This claim comes from decades in manufacturing, where I have faced this question of where I can buy components, assemblies and services. Twenty or thirty years ago sourcing from the US or Europe wasn't horribly difficult. Today, it is frustrating to see just how difficult this is. The problem is real. Nobody is suggesting 100% repatriation of the supply chain. That is impossible. There is a number between 0% and 100% that would do both the US and Europe much good. I don't know what that number is. Once you start looking at more "real world" products, the picture gets dark very quickly. Last year we designed a robotic system. Virtually every component that went into making this robot came from China. I think I can say that the aluminum, sheet metal and bearings did not. While I did not conduct a component-by-component survey, I think I can easily say that 95% of the electronic components, connectors, wires, cameras, displays, sensors, pneumatic valves, motors and even the wheels came from China. In other words, if you had to make this robot without China all you'd end-up with is an empty metal shell. That should make everyone take pause.
- robomartin 6y ago

yulaow 6y ago

I think, but I am not sure, that parent was talking about the whole production chain, from raw materials to end product. For what I remember some(most?) components of arduinos are imported from outside EU. Correct me if I am wrong.

hef19898 6y ago
True local self sustainability stopped being a thing in the bronze age.
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>For what I remember some(most?) components of arduinos are imported from outside EU So what? A third of iphone components are imported from outside of china. No competitive economy is 100% self sustainable.
robomartin 6y ago
I am using an Arduino as a simple example. Anyone can look-up the components used to make one, go through the exercise of sourcing them and gain an understanding of supply chain realities in this way. Generally speaking, products with greater complexity illustrate this problem far better. The problem is it would be impossible for the a reader on HN to dig into this reality due to not having access to the bill of materials, etc. I have never said I am pushing for a 100% localized supply chain. That would be preposterous. Silly. However, the reality we navigate today isn't good at all. Last year showed the world what can happen. China is nearly at a 100% single-source position. This varies from industry to industry. And, of course, they are not saying "we have enough, let's stop here", they are laser-focused on bringing in as much business as possible and will absorb as much of the supply chain as possible. What they have done is admirable and nothing less than remarkable. I don't fault or hate them for it. They work hard and deliver results. They deserve to be where they are.

robomartin 6y ago

I think you need to read what I wrote more carefully. I try to be precise with my language. Simple exercise: The bill of materials for Arduino boards is publicly available. Pick a board. Now go source every single component on that board. Create two spreadsheets. The first would have you source what you can from China. The second would source from any EU country and the US if you'd like and exclude any Chinese made component from the list. My prediction: You can make 100% of an Arduino in China using Chinese components. You cannot make an Arduino in Europe or the US without Chinese components. Let's add another layer to this. Let's say you create a third spreadsheet where you source as many components (and services) as possible from the US and Europe and whatever you can't you get from China. Now calculate the cost for each case: China only. US/EU only. US/EU + necessary Chinese components and services. Prediction: The US/EU cost --if it is even possible to do it-- will easily double or triple the cost of that product. The US/EU + China cost won't be competitive at all because the vast majority of the items will have to come from China and you will incur additional costs for producing in the US/EU rather than just facing reality and having the product made entirely in China. Please note that I am using an Arduino as a super-simple example for the sake of an illustration. It would be wrong to engage in dissecting this simple illustration tool in an attempt to invalidate my claim. This claim comes from decades in manufacturing, where I have faced this question of where I can buy components, assemblies and services. Twenty or thirty years ago sourcing from the US or Europe wasn't horribly difficult. Today, it is frustrating to see just how difficult this is. The problem is real. Nobody is suggesting 100% repatriation of the supply chain. That is impossible. There is a number between 0% and 100% that would do both the US and Europe much good. I don't know what that number is. Once you start looking at more "real world" products, the picture gets dark very quickly. Last year we designed a robotic system. Virtually every component that went into making this robot came from China. I think I can say that the aluminum, sheet metal and bearings did not. While I did not conduct a component-by-component survey, I think I can easily say that 95% of the electronic components, connectors, wires, cameras, displays, sensors, pneumatic valves, motors and even the wheels came from China. In other words, if you had to make this robot without China all you'd end-up with is an empty metal shell. That should make everyone take pause.

robomartin 6y ago