4 ms·

It is not a club I would care to be a member of in any case, given their history of excluding women and minorities.

by gnu8 5y ago

listenallyall 5y ago
This is purely rhetorical, as I have no doubt you will never be invited to join. However, my question is whether you believe there is ever a level of change and progress and reconciliation that would allow an organization with a far-from-perfect past, to move forward and embrace current social values? Or does every organization that ever had a history of racism or sexism permanently on your "banned" list? If there is no chance of ever getting on your (and people who think like you) right side, why should organizations make an effort to change?
- refulgentis 5y ago
  Is this a common rejoinder? I was struck by the other replies stating the same question. Regardless, people who are black weren't invited until 1990, people with vaginas weren't invited until 2012, and the founder was rather infamously proud of this and loud-spoken about it. This is hardly a 'how many times do you need them to apologize' situation, in all cases they merely quietly began accepting people, after defending their position until then.
  - gnu8 5y ago
    That is my point, they deserve our scorn for being so late to end their bigoted policies, not praise.
francisofascii 5y ago
There is no doubt the club has a checkered history, but are there any organizations of historical significance that don't have cases of wrongful exclusion?
- elliekelly 5y ago
  As recently as Augusta? Not many. The club required caddies to be black until the 80s and just a decade ago women weren’t welcome as members. Edit: Old NYT article on the first white caddies https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/10/sports/sports-of-the-times-those-new-masters-caddies.html https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/10/sports/sports-of-the-time...
kyleblarson 5y ago
Assuming you are American, you are a 'member' of a club that has some history of 'excluding women and minorities' (as is the case with pretty much every country on the planet). Do you plan to renounce your membership? Things change over time, generally for the better.

It is not a club I would care to be a member of in any case, given their history of excluding women and minorities.

by gnu8 5y ago

It is not a club I would care to be a member of in any case, given their history of excluding women and minorities.

This is purely rhetorical, as I have no doubt you will never be invited to join. However, my question is whether you believe there is ever a level of change and progress and reconciliation that would allow an organization with a far-from-perfect past, to move forward and embrace current social values? Or does every organization that ever had a history of racism or sexism permanently on your "banned" list? If there is no chance of ever getting on your (and people who think like you) right side, why should organizations make an effort to change?

refulgentis 5y ago
Is this a common rejoinder? I was struck by the other replies stating the same question. Regardless, people who are black weren't invited until 1990, people with vaginas weren't invited until 2012, and the founder was rather infamously proud of this and loud-spoken about it. This is hardly a 'how many times do you need them to apologize' situation, in all cases they merely quietly began accepting people, after defending their position until then.
- gnu8 5y ago
  That is my point, they deserve our scorn for being so late to end their bigoted policies, not praise.

francisofascii 5y ago

There is no doubt the club has a checkered history, but are there any organizations of historical significance that don't have cases of wrongful exclusion?

elliekelly 5y ago
As recently as Augusta? Not many. The club required caddies to be black until the 80s and just a decade ago women weren’t welcome as members. Edit: Old NYT article on the first white caddies https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/10/sports/sports-of-the-times-those-new-masters-caddies.html https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/10/sports/sports-of-the-time...

kyleblarson 5y ago

Assuming you are American, you are a 'member' of a club that has some history of 'excluding women and minorities' (as is the case with pretty much every country on the planet). Do you plan to renounce your membership? Things change over time, generally for the better.