5 ms·

It may have come across as being insensitive, but what he wrote in that email wasn't technically wrong.

unityByFreedom 6y ago
> wasn't technically wrong That is your opinion. Others may disagree. > It may have come across as being insensitive Sensitivity is a huge part of communication despite RMS acting otherwise. Arguably he'd find more success knowing which battles to fight against whom, when and how.
chc 6y ago
Didn't he write that Epstein's child sex trafficking victim being pimped to septuagenarian professor Marvin Minsky should be considered consensual sex and not rape, despite her attestations otherwise?
- overboard2 6y ago
  He said that Epstein may have coerced her to present herself as "entirely willing".
  - ralfd 6y ago
    Which is reasonableto assume if she was a trap so that Epstein could get blackmail material. RMS argued she would present herself as older than 17 and seduce her targets. What is most unclear to me in that whole kermuffle is that this strongly seems to be a hypothetical. She only said that she was instructed to target Minsky, but not that she did have sex with Minsky (or he with her.) I somewhere else read the claim that Minsky was accompanied with his wife, so he couldn't have slept with her even if he wanted to.
- NotSammyHagar 6y ago
  Woah, can you provide a citation for that?
  - chc 6y ago
    From emails posted here: https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... > The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: > “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims [2])” [ ... ] > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      Saying she presented herself as willing isn't the same as saying she was willing.
    - dahfizz 6y ago
      Here is the full quote: We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. He literaly said the girl was being coerced by epstein to _appear_ willing. Not that she was a willing participant. You are grossly misrepresenting what was said.
      - chc 5y ago
        And I did not say "He said she was a willing participant." I think it is fair to say that Stallman believes it should be considered consensual sex as opposed to rape. Based on what he has said, I'm pretty sure that if you went up to Stallman and asked, "Did Minsky rape that kid?" he'd say no. On top of that, the idea "It is not a violation if I have sex with this child because I believe I have obtained the child's consent" is extremely controversial (to put it mildly), and it seems like it's just assumed to be a reasonable thought process on Minsky's part in Stallman's construction of the situation. Stallman seems to be starting from the premise "Statutory rape is not rape" and arriving at the conclusion "This statutory rape is not rape," and from there he proceeds to berate people for claiming it is.
- dpbriggs 6y ago
  He didn't write that; it was reported as that. It wasn't appropriate but RMS being RMS wrote about a situation in which the girls were being coerced into presenting willingly, which Minksy then could have believed. RMS is technically correct - this scenario could have happened - but I don't believe it as Minsky couldn't have been that naive.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - comex 6y ago
    He didn't just say it could have happened. He said that the girl "present[ing] herself to him as entirely willing" was "the most plausible scenario". While he doesn't explicitly claim that it's 'most plausible' that Minsky believed it, this seems to be implied, given that he spends the rest of the email criticizing the use of the term "sexual assault". In this, he is not technically correct.
  - wrycoder 5y ago
    The best evidence we have indicates that Minsky was not naive - he turned her down, and then remarked to an associate about it. And his wife denies it, she was with him.
kube-system 6y ago
Being correct is entirely orthogonal to being appropriate.
- xupybd 5y ago
  To forgive someone's social incompetence could be considered appropriate in this context.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    For someone in a leadership role, it could be considered an inability to perform basic job responsibilities.
    - xupybd 5y ago
      I agree. Forgiveness does not mean that he should retain his role. However I think his comments have been distorted and I'm not sure this is any worse than him eating the skin off his foot.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    Social incompetence always made RMS incompetent as a spokeperson / public speaker. I'm grateful for his work on GPL and Free Software but this does not make him a suitable spokeperson.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- salawat 5y ago
  Appropriate or not, it was the truth, and whether people feel like hearing it or not, the truth is always justified in standing up for.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    I disagree. There are plenty of instances where a truthful statement isn’t worth standing up for. For example: statements that are unimportant, irrelevant, inconsequential, etc, in the context of the broader situation.

> wasn't technically wrong That is your opinion. Others may disagree. > It may have come across as being insensitive Sensitivity is a huge part of communication despite RMS acting otherwise. Arguably he'd find more success knowing which battles to fight against whom, when and how.

chc 6y ago

Didn't he write that Epstein's child sex trafficking victim being pimped to septuagenarian professor Marvin Minsky should be considered consensual sex and not rape, despite her attestations otherwise?

overboard2 6y ago
He said that Epstein may have coerced her to present herself as "entirely willing".
- ralfd 6y ago
  Which is reasonableto assume if she was a trap so that Epstein could get blackmail material. RMS argued she would present herself as older than 17 and seduce her targets. What is most unclear to me in that whole kermuffle is that this strongly seems to be a hypothetical. She only said that she was instructed to target Minsky, but not that she did have sex with Minsky (or he with her.) I somewhere else read the claim that Minsky was accompanied with his wife, so he couldn't have slept with her even if he wanted to.
NotSammyHagar 6y ago
Woah, can you provide a citation for that?
- chc 6y ago
  From emails posted here: https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... > The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: > “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims [2])” [ ... ] > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    Saying she presented herself as willing isn't the same as saying she was willing.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    Here is the full quote: We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. He literaly said the girl was being coerced by epstein to _appear_ willing. Not that she was a willing participant. You are grossly misrepresenting what was said.
    - chc 5y ago
      And I did not say "He said she was a willing participant." I think it is fair to say that Stallman believes it should be considered consensual sex as opposed to rape. Based on what he has said, I'm pretty sure that if you went up to Stallman and asked, "Did Minsky rape that kid?" he'd say no. On top of that, the idea "It is not a violation if I have sex with this child because I believe I have obtained the child's consent" is extremely controversial (to put it mildly), and it seems like it's just assumed to be a reasonable thought process on Minsky's part in Stallman's construction of the situation. Stallman seems to be starting from the premise "Statutory rape is not rape" and arriving at the conclusion "This statutory rape is not rape," and from there he proceeds to berate people for claiming it is.
dpbriggs 6y ago
He didn't write that; it was reported as that. It wasn't appropriate but RMS being RMS wrote about a situation in which the girls were being coerced into presenting willingly, which Minksy then could have believed. RMS is technically correct - this scenario could have happened - but I don't believe it as Minsky couldn't have been that naive.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- comex 6y ago
  He didn't just say it could have happened. He said that the girl "present[ing] herself to him as entirely willing" was "the most plausible scenario". While he doesn't explicitly claim that it's 'most plausible' that Minsky believed it, this seems to be implied, given that he spends the rest of the email criticizing the use of the term "sexual assault". In this, he is not technically correct.
- wrycoder 5y ago
  The best evidence we have indicates that Minsky was not naive - he turned her down, and then remarked to an associate about it. And his wife denies it, she was with him.

kube-system 6y ago

Being correct is entirely orthogonal to being appropriate.

xupybd 5y ago
To forgive someone's social incompetence could be considered appropriate in this context.
- kube-system 5y ago
  For someone in a leadership role, it could be considered an inability to perform basic job responsibilities.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    I agree. Forgiveness does not mean that he should retain his role. However I think his comments have been distorted and I'm not sure this is any worse than him eating the skin off his foot.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  Social incompetence always made RMS incompetent as a spokeperson / public speaker. I'm grateful for his work on GPL and Free Software but this does not make him a suitable spokeperson.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
salawat 5y ago
Appropriate or not, it was the truth, and whether people feel like hearing it or not, the truth is always justified in standing up for.
- kube-system 5y ago
  I disagree. There are plenty of instances where a truthful statement isn’t worth standing up for. For example: statements that are unimportant, irrelevant, inconsequential, etc, in the context of the broader situation.