6 ms·

These are probably the most highly guarded facilities in Iran. Justified or not, it is absolutely incredible that certain intelligence organizations are able to

These are probably the most highly guarded facilities in Iran. Justified or not, it is absolutely incredible that certain intelligence organizations are able to pull off these types of attacks again and again. We will probably never know how they did it, but I hope I can read about it one day.

yonixw 6y ago
While not downplaying it, It was probably around 70% "human hacking" and only 30% computer\hardware hacking.
- benja123 6y ago
  For me that makes it all the more interesting. I would assume that most of the people that work at those facilities are subject to intense security checks and surveillance. Despite that someone is able to either convince or trick some of the workers to do something that comes at a huge personal risk. Human hacking is no less interesting than software/hardware hacking
  - emayljames 6y ago
    The soft spots are always blackmail, extortion and threats. Once they have people in one of these positions, they have a lot of leverage.
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  On something like this, I expect the "human hacking" to be much harder, and the "everything is broken" nature of computing to be nearly unchanged. So I expect it to be computer hacking at any place where it's possible, and human hacking only to run around theoretically unbeatable protections (like air-gaps).
- dogma1138 6y ago
  Human hacking in a police state with no diplomatic mission for cover and where nearly every foreigner is surveilled from the moment they enter makes this even more remarkable. The fact that western intelligence agencies and especially the Israelis managed to develop a network of assets in Iran is marvel of tradecraft.
  - gerash 5y ago
    I remember a while ago some disgruntled folk at US army base started shooting at and killing a group of other army men. In other instances some folks were radicalized online and killed a bunch of random citizens. US has top notch intelligence. A lot of Israel operations are done through recruiting and paying dissidents. Iran is a big country and their rulers have made many internal enemies and aren't that competent in general. Israel is just using this weakness to incur as much damage it can either to the infrastructure or by killing civilians (eg. scientists being exploded in front of their homes) without any apparent consequence from the so called "free world". So should we celebrate how those who radicalized these mass shooters online have such sophisticated cyber capabilities?
- koheripbal 6y ago
  This is a baseless guess.
ehsankia 6y ago
While Israel would be the #1 suspect as they want the JCPOA deal to fail, I would assume that some people in Iran are also against the deal and want it to see it fail, so an internal sabotage isn't really out of the question.
- stevehawk 6y ago
  well we're talking about a facility that isn't supposed to be connected to the internet. so there has to be an internal actor. like there was with stuxnet
  - shakna 6y ago
    Yes, no, maybe. Whilst you would expect most airgapped systems to also be in buildings that intentionally block signals, there are a ton of "unexpected" interactions, some of which may give you ways to remotely transmit when no transmission is expected to be possible. Like the fact that USB 3.0 can interfere with the 2.4Ghz spectrum [0], thanks to resonance. Israel has also previously demonstrated malware called Odini [1] and aIR-Jumper [2] to bypass Faraday protections around systems and exfiltrate data. [0] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/io/universal-serial-bus/usb3-frequency-interference-paper.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/io/uni... [1] https://www.rambus.com/blogs/bypassing-air-gapped-faraday-cages/ https://www.rambus.com/blogs/bypassing-air-gapped-faraday-ca... [2] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/09/attackers-can-use-surveillance-cameras-to-grab-data-from-air-gapped-networks/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/09/attac...
  - frombody 6y ago
    What looks like a planned explosion just happend (front page NYT) So it does appear to be someone at the facility.
- benja123 6y ago
  Why would you assume the people in Iran want the deal to fail? I would suspect that most Iranians, regardless of if they are for or against the nuclear program, just want sanction relief and don’t care how they get it. At the end of the day, most people just want to have a good life and sanction relief will help that happen.
cronix 6y ago
If you go back and watch how Stuxnet, ie "Olympic Games," was created, and the methods they used to figure everything out down to the particular model of centrifuges to target, it really is quite eye opening on how extensive these operations are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wapd1-E5dzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wapd1-E5dzc
- sneak 6y ago
  There’s a lot of blatant racism in that video, but that aside, his description does not align with the way I understand the attack occurred.
lamontcg 6y ago
Alternatively, now literally any normal fuck up at Natanz can be played off as a cyber hack for political points, and everyone unquestionably assumes that is plausible.
- adolph 6y ago
  The null hypothesis is underrated everywhere.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>These are probably the most highly guarded facilities in Iran This seems unlikely. Iran's nuclear facilities aren't overly important compared to things like their oil production or likely any military facility, and there is incredibly detailed information available about the site in question as a result of many nuclear inspections.
bjourne 6y ago
Iran isn't a totalitarian society and it doesn't keep tabs on all its citizens. There are lots of dissident groups in Iran that want to see the regime fall (many Arab minorities, for example). Recruiting from these groups to do Israel's dirty work is not complicated. Some of the Iranian scientists Israel has had killed were apparently killed by Iranian gangsters. In one instance, they drove up to the car the scientist was travelling in at an intersection, smashed the car window and fired multiple shots at him. Not that sophisticated, but gets the job done. There is not much evidence that Israel's cyber warfare capabilities exceeds that of other states. However, Israel is clearly less reluctant than other states to use what they have offensively. Perhaps because Israel would suffer virtually no diplomatic fallout from getting caught and because it would be Iranians - not Israeli agents - who would be hanged. Personally, I think praising Israel's cyber warfare is like praising pedophiles for amazing tech savyness for running child pornography rings undetected for so long. It leaves a bad taste, especially since Israel is trying to rebrand itself as a tech leader. The idea is that we should forget about its ongoing human rights abuses and gawk at all the tech Israel is producing.
- HenryKissinger 6y ago
  > There is not much evidence that Israel's cyber warfare capabilities exceeds that of other states. Israeli cyber warriors are known to be among the best in the world, on par with anything other major powers have to offer.
- seniorivn 6y ago
  it is a totalitarian state, just a weak one
- lupire 6y ago
  It's not "branding". They sell stuff buyers want.
LatteLazy 6y ago
That's the great thing about cyber attacks: all you need is one person putting one USB in a port for 30seconds, years before d-day and you're there. Easier to hide than a bomb, more reliable than any human agent, more reliable than spec ops, and totally deniable.

yonixw 6y ago

While not downplaying it, It was probably around 70% "human hacking" and only 30% computer\hardware hacking.

benja123 6y ago
For me that makes it all the more interesting. I would assume that most of the people that work at those facilities are subject to intense security checks and surveillance. Despite that someone is able to either convince or trick some of the workers to do something that comes at a huge personal risk. Human hacking is no less interesting than software/hardware hacking
- emayljames 6y ago
  The soft spots are always blackmail, extortion and threats. Once they have people in one of these positions, they have a lot of leverage.
marcosdumay 6y ago
On something like this, I expect the "human hacking" to be much harder, and the "everything is broken" nature of computing to be nearly unchanged. So I expect it to be computer hacking at any place where it's possible, and human hacking only to run around theoretically unbeatable protections (like air-gaps).
dogma1138 6y ago
Human hacking in a police state with no diplomatic mission for cover and where nearly every foreigner is surveilled from the moment they enter makes this even more remarkable. The fact that western intelligence agencies and especially the Israelis managed to develop a network of assets in Iran is marvel of tradecraft.
- gerash 5y ago
  I remember a while ago some disgruntled folk at US army base started shooting at and killing a group of other army men. In other instances some folks were radicalized online and killed a bunch of random citizens. US has top notch intelligence. A lot of Israel operations are done through recruiting and paying dissidents. Iran is a big country and their rulers have made many internal enemies and aren't that competent in general. Israel is just using this weakness to incur as much damage it can either to the infrastructure or by killing civilians (eg. scientists being exploded in front of their homes) without any apparent consequence from the so called "free world". So should we celebrate how those who radicalized these mass shooters online have such sophisticated cyber capabilities?
koheripbal 6y ago
This is a baseless guess.

ehsankia 6y ago

While Israel would be the #1 suspect as they want the JCPOA deal to fail, I would assume that some people in Iran are also against the deal and want it to see it fail, so an internal sabotage isn't really out of the question.

stevehawk 6y ago
well we're talking about a facility that isn't supposed to be connected to the internet. so there has to be an internal actor. like there was with stuxnet
- shakna 6y ago
  Yes, no, maybe. Whilst you would expect most airgapped systems to also be in buildings that intentionally block signals, there are a ton of "unexpected" interactions, some of which may give you ways to remotely transmit when no transmission is expected to be possible. Like the fact that USB 3.0 can interfere with the 2.4Ghz spectrum [0], thanks to resonance. Israel has also previously demonstrated malware called Odini [1] and aIR-Jumper [2] to bypass Faraday protections around systems and exfiltrate data. [0] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/io/universal-serial-bus/usb3-frequency-interference-paper.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/io/uni... [1] https://www.rambus.com/blogs/bypassing-air-gapped-faraday-cages/ https://www.rambus.com/blogs/bypassing-air-gapped-faraday-ca... [2] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/09/attackers-can-use-surveillance-cameras-to-grab-data-from-air-gapped-networks/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/09/attac...
- frombody 6y ago
  What looks like a planned explosion just happend (front page NYT) So it does appear to be someone at the facility.
benja123 6y ago
Why would you assume the people in Iran want the deal to fail? I would suspect that most Iranians, regardless of if they are for or against the nuclear program, just want sanction relief and don’t care how they get it. At the end of the day, most people just want to have a good life and sanction relief will help that happen.

cronix 6y ago

If you go back and watch how Stuxnet, ie "Olympic Games," was created, and the methods they used to figure everything out down to the particular model of centrifuges to target, it really is quite eye opening on how extensive these operations are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wapd1-E5dzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wapd1-E5dzc

sneak 6y ago
There’s a lot of blatant racism in that video, but that aside, his description does not align with the way I understand the attack occurred.

lamontcg 6y ago

Alternatively, now literally any normal fuck up at Natanz can be played off as a cyber hack for political points, and everyone unquestionably assumes that is plausible.

adolph 6y ago
The null hypothesis is underrated everywhere.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

>These are probably the most highly guarded facilities in Iran This seems unlikely. Iran's nuclear facilities aren't overly important compared to things like their oil production or likely any military facility, and there is incredibly detailed information available about the site in question as a result of many nuclear inspections.

bjourne 6y ago

Iran isn't a totalitarian society and it doesn't keep tabs on all its citizens. There are lots of dissident groups in Iran that want to see the regime fall (many Arab minorities, for example). Recruiting from these groups to do Israel's dirty work is not complicated. Some of the Iranian scientists Israel has had killed were apparently killed by Iranian gangsters. In one instance, they drove up to the car the scientist was travelling in at an intersection, smashed the car window and fired multiple shots at him. Not that sophisticated, but gets the job done. There is not much evidence that Israel's cyber warfare capabilities exceeds that of other states. However, Israel is clearly less reluctant than other states to use what they have offensively. Perhaps because Israel would suffer virtually no diplomatic fallout from getting caught and because it would be Iranians - not Israeli agents - who would be hanged. Personally, I think praising Israel's cyber warfare is like praising pedophiles for amazing tech savyness for running child pornography rings undetected for so long. It leaves a bad taste, especially since Israel is trying to rebrand itself as a tech leader. The idea is that we should forget about its ongoing human rights abuses and gawk at all the tech Israel is producing.

HenryKissinger 6y ago
> There is not much evidence that Israel's cyber warfare capabilities exceeds that of other states. Israeli cyber warriors are known to be among the best in the world, on par with anything other major powers have to offer.
seniorivn 6y ago
it is a totalitarian state, just a weak one
lupire 6y ago
It's not "branding". They sell stuff buyers want.

LatteLazy 6y ago

That's the great thing about cyber attacks: all you need is one person putting one USB in a port for 30seconds, years before d-day and you're there. Easier to hide than a bomb, more reliable than any human agent, more reliable than spec ops, and totally deniable.