5 ms·

Eh I used to want to work for Google, but now I see it about as sexy as working for AT&T. Doing something like this gives you respect and freedom instead.

by rijoja 6y ago

matsemann 6y ago
Also, working for these FAANGs to get the high salary means moving to the US, which for many Europeans has become undesirable the later years.
- gbin 6y ago
  Do you mean it is bad for their career if they go back in Europe or simply they usually don't like living in the US?
  - dx034 6y ago
    Moving away from home is just not something many people want to do. I don't think many Americans would move to another country with different language and far away from their family, just because they'd get a higher salary.
  - e12e 6y ago
    The US is seen as a bit of a backwards country; poor medical, technologically poor (banking, internet), little paid time off/vacation, no free/cheap higher education, rampant gun violence/domestic terror - on top of that you risk loosing some pension and health benefits in your "home" country if you stay abroad for years. Note that the point with a solid/free education system isn't that kids of rich SEs get free college - it's that society as a whole gets better education - and your kid's friends also have a future/access to education.
  - aloisdg 6y ago
    French here. No way I would leave a society who achieve 35 workweek, minimum wage, 25 days payed vacation and free healthcare. As a programmer I could win more in another country, but I dont want this money if people around me cant live a decent life. Even in France it is quite hard. I wont leave for a lesser country like the US. I want my nurse to be able to do a great work and it means having a good life.
    - mensetmanusman 6y ago
      Probably no reason to vilify the US as a ‘lesser’ country, everyone in the world has their struggles.
      - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        I think the reason it's viewed the way it is, is that it's actually a strange choice. If these problem happen in some random poor country that used to be a conquered colony, that makes more sence
      - aloisdg 6y ago
        In terms of social protection, the US is so far lower than France... It is dystopian.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    Going to the USA has been my dream since being a teenager but that's not the case anymore. The USA has some good things going for it: VC money, great salaries, true freedom of speech (unlike the EU), right to bear arms (unlike most of the EU, where only robbers have guns and if you defend yourself you risk getting sued - tried on my skin), beautiful seaside, legal weed, less problems with immigrants (African immigration is a bomb waiting to explode, if it hasn't exploded already), place with good opportunity and enjoy a nice climate (in Europe the choice is between cold places with good work opportunity, aka UK, Switzerland or warm places with a barely functioning economy and ridiculously high taxes). Unfortunately health care is too expensive, taxes are as high as Europe (where is your freedom?), the food is subpar, mass shooting in schools, you have to drive way too much, a culture that is transitioning kids because they think they're the opposite gender. All in all, I think I'll stick with Europe for the time being and consider maybe South America or South East Asia in the future.
    - FpUser 6y ago
      >"legal weed" That would be Canada, not the US. Even though some US states allow it, the feds do not.
    - glitchcrab 6y ago
      Why on earth would the right to bear guns be seen as a good thing? My mind boggles at this.
  - smoe 6y ago
    Not GP, but besides career opportunities, the US is just not very appealing (anymore) to many. It is not even necessarily about things where you could objectively say something is better or worse, but personal preferences on how to live life. For me the biggest luxury of being a software engineer is, that pretty much wherever I go, I’m going to be solidly middle class within that region. So I can afford prioritizing other things over maximizing salary.
- igeligel_dev 6y ago
  I can tell you it is a bit different. The visa is hard to obtain unfortunately, otherwise I think a lot more engineers would move, me included. The only real options are: - L-1 visa: Get into FAANG in Europe and try to transfer to the US. Lots of unknowns if you really get transferred and so on. L-1 to green card seems to be possible, best possibility for Europeans though - H-1B visa: Applying from abroad: Nearly no chance, sorry. You will have to schedule your applications to the end of the year to get into the lottery in March or so, and then it is pure luck. 30% chance from what I have heard + you have to rock the interviews hard and the company must be super-willing to wait for you - Study in the US. Do a masters degree there and be on Optional practical training (OPT) for up to a year/two years after graduation and hope your H-1B visa goes through in the meantime All these paths have kind of unknowns unfortunately and the path to permanent residency is even more strict. Or you just marry someone from the US.
- praptak 6y ago
  You can get the high salary in Zurich, although if you're already in Zurich you'd be better off working in finance. Source: my colleague who moved to Google Zurich and then switched jobs to finance.
  - chefkoch 6y ago
    And zurich is even more expensive than every city in Germany.
    - praptak 6y ago
      Not surprising, given the strong financial sector whose employees you compete with. London is similar in this aspect. On the other hand the public transport is great, which means you don't have to live in the most expensive areas to have decent commute.
  - hawk_ 6y ago
    switched to finance as a software engineer or more trading_algo/quant engineer?
    - praptak 6y ago
      I think it's something close to SRE but don't quote me on that.
- franga2000 6y ago
  This 100x! Sure the salary might be great, but to give up all the comforts of a...you know...actually developed country? No thanks! I'd much rather work for a local software shop for a slightly above-averege salary in a country where the prospect of owning an apartment is more than a fantasy, where I won't go bankrupt if I have a serious medical issue, won't get shot by a raging idiot if I don't start moving at a red light fast enough, my hypothetical children can get excellent education without taking out predatory loans that will follow them for the rest of their life, not to mention the political system over there.....
  - varjag 6y ago
    I'm also a dev in Europe but this is ridiculous. You ain't going to die on the street of illness if you work at FAANG. Driving in Bay Area feels positively relaxed to many places in Europe too. Hell, even LA is a lot nicer place to drive than Rome.
    - franga2000 6y ago
      True, I was definitely exaggerating, but the horror stories I hear from my american friends still make very skeptical that moving to the US for what would probably be a junior position at FAANG would be worth it in any way. Just the story of a friend of mine getting some basic dental surgery in the US makes me not even consider moving there.
      - varjag 6y ago
        At a FAANG you'd have healthcare and dental insurance plans co-sponsored by the employer, in addition to pretty humongous compensation that would easily cover your $50 or so dental insurance contribution. Don't get me wrong there's plenty of folks who struggle in America, but white-collar employees of the top five tech megacorps ain't them.
        bradlys 6y ago
        Even if you’re not at FAANG, you’re going to get pretty good care for very little cost at any funded startup. Almost every place I’ve worked I’ve never had to pay insurance premiums and almost always had obscenely low copays for visits and operations. (Visit a doctor - $10, surgery - $35... etc.. very cheap) Being a software engineer in the valley definitely means you’ll likely have a pretty good healthcare situation that might be better than the free version you get in other countries...
roninkoi 6y ago
Working at Bell Labs would have been great! :)
- rijoja 6y ago
  Back in the days yeah! Same thing goes for google when it was a fresh company that didn't do evil.
FpUser 6y ago
After quitting in 2000 I work on my own creating products, some under my ownership and some for clients. In average I do just fine, some years are good, some are not that good. However not once have I ever thought of trading my freedom to do as I please to some better paying job at FAANG or the likes.

Eh I used to want to work for Google, but now I see it about as sexy as working for AT&T. Doing something like this gives you respect and freedom instead.

by rijoja 6y ago

Eh I used to want to work for Google, but now I see it about as sexy as working for AT&T. Doing something like this gives you respect and freedom instead.

matsemann 6y ago

Also, working for these FAANGs to get the high salary means moving to the US, which for many Europeans has become undesirable the later years.

gbin 6y ago
Do you mean it is bad for their career if they go back in Europe or simply they usually don't like living in the US?
- dx034 6y ago
  Moving away from home is just not something many people want to do. I don't think many Americans would move to another country with different language and far away from their family, just because they'd get a higher salary.
- e12e 6y ago
  The US is seen as a bit of a backwards country; poor medical, technologically poor (banking, internet), little paid time off/vacation, no free/cheap higher education, rampant gun violence/domestic terror - on top of that you risk loosing some pension and health benefits in your "home" country if you stay abroad for years. Note that the point with a solid/free education system isn't that kids of rich SEs get free college - it's that society as a whole gets better education - and your kid's friends also have a future/access to education.
- aloisdg 6y ago
  French here. No way I would leave a society who achieve 35 workweek, minimum wage, 25 days payed vacation and free healthcare. As a programmer I could win more in another country, but I dont want this money if people around me cant live a decent life. Even in France it is quite hard. I wont leave for a lesser country like the US. I want my nurse to be able to do a great work and it means having a good life.
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    Probably no reason to vilify the US as a ‘lesser’ country, everyone in the world has their struggles.
    - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
      I think the reason it's viewed the way it is, is that it's actually a strange choice. If these problem happen in some random poor country that used to be a conquered colony, that makes more sence
    - aloisdg 6y ago
      In terms of social protection, the US is so far lower than France... It is dystopian.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  Going to the USA has been my dream since being a teenager but that's not the case anymore. The USA has some good things going for it: VC money, great salaries, true freedom of speech (unlike the EU), right to bear arms (unlike most of the EU, where only robbers have guns and if you defend yourself you risk getting sued - tried on my skin), beautiful seaside, legal weed, less problems with immigrants (African immigration is a bomb waiting to explode, if it hasn't exploded already), place with good opportunity and enjoy a nice climate (in Europe the choice is between cold places with good work opportunity, aka UK, Switzerland or warm places with a barely functioning economy and ridiculously high taxes). Unfortunately health care is too expensive, taxes are as high as Europe (where is your freedom?), the food is subpar, mass shooting in schools, you have to drive way too much, a culture that is transitioning kids because they think they're the opposite gender. All in all, I think I'll stick with Europe for the time being and consider maybe South America or South East Asia in the future.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    >"legal weed" That would be Canada, not the US. Even though some US states allow it, the feds do not.
  - glitchcrab 6y ago
    Why on earth would the right to bear guns be seen as a good thing? My mind boggles at this.
- smoe 6y ago
  Not GP, but besides career opportunities, the US is just not very appealing (anymore) to many. It is not even necessarily about things where you could objectively say something is better or worse, but personal preferences on how to live life. For me the biggest luxury of being a software engineer is, that pretty much wherever I go, I’m going to be solidly middle class within that region. So I can afford prioritizing other things over maximizing salary.
igeligel_dev 6y ago
I can tell you it is a bit different. The visa is hard to obtain unfortunately, otherwise I think a lot more engineers would move, me included. The only real options are: - L-1 visa: Get into FAANG in Europe and try to transfer to the US. Lots of unknowns if you really get transferred and so on. L-1 to green card seems to be possible, best possibility for Europeans though - H-1B visa: Applying from abroad: Nearly no chance, sorry. You will have to schedule your applications to the end of the year to get into the lottery in March or so, and then it is pure luck. 30% chance from what I have heard + you have to rock the interviews hard and the company must be super-willing to wait for you - Study in the US. Do a masters degree there and be on Optional practical training (OPT) for up to a year/two years after graduation and hope your H-1B visa goes through in the meantime All these paths have kind of unknowns unfortunately and the path to permanent residency is even more strict. Or you just marry someone from the US.
praptak 6y ago
You can get the high salary in Zurich, although if you're already in Zurich you'd be better off working in finance. Source: my colleague who moved to Google Zurich and then switched jobs to finance.
- chefkoch 6y ago
  And zurich is even more expensive than every city in Germany.
  - praptak 6y ago
    Not surprising, given the strong financial sector whose employees you compete with. London is similar in this aspect. On the other hand the public transport is great, which means you don't have to live in the most expensive areas to have decent commute.
- hawk_ 6y ago
  switched to finance as a software engineer or more trading_algo/quant engineer?
  - praptak 6y ago
    I think it's something close to SRE but don't quote me on that.
franga2000 6y ago
This 100x! Sure the salary might be great, but to give up all the comforts of a...you know...actually developed country? No thanks! I'd much rather work for a local software shop for a slightly above-averege salary in a country where the prospect of owning an apartment is more than a fantasy, where I won't go bankrupt if I have a serious medical issue, won't get shot by a raging idiot if I don't start moving at a red light fast enough, my hypothetical children can get excellent education without taking out predatory loans that will follow them for the rest of their life, not to mention the political system over there.....
- varjag 6y ago
  I'm also a dev in Europe but this is ridiculous. You ain't going to die on the street of illness if you work at FAANG. Driving in Bay Area feels positively relaxed to many places in Europe too. Hell, even LA is a lot nicer place to drive than Rome.
  - franga2000 6y ago
    True, I was definitely exaggerating, but the horror stories I hear from my american friends still make very skeptical that moving to the US for what would probably be a junior position at FAANG would be worth it in any way. Just the story of a friend of mine getting some basic dental surgery in the US makes me not even consider moving there.
    - varjag 6y ago
      At a FAANG you'd have healthcare and dental insurance plans co-sponsored by the employer, in addition to pretty humongous compensation that would easily cover your $50 or so dental insurance contribution. Don't get me wrong there's plenty of folks who struggle in America, but white-collar employees of the top five tech megacorps ain't them.
      - bradlys 6y ago
        Even if you’re not at FAANG, you’re going to get pretty good care for very little cost at any funded startup. Almost every place I’ve worked I’ve never had to pay insurance premiums and almost always had obscenely low copays for visits and operations. (Visit a doctor - $10, surgery - $35... etc.. very cheap) Being a software engineer in the valley definitely means you’ll likely have a pretty good healthcare situation that might be better than the free version you get in other countries...

roninkoi 6y ago

Working at Bell Labs would have been great! :)

rijoja 6y ago
Back in the days yeah! Same thing goes for google when it was a fresh company that didn't do evil.

FpUser 6y ago

After quitting in 2000 I work on my own creating products, some under my ownership and some for clients. In average I do just fine, some years are good, some are not that good. However not once have I ever thought of trading my freedom to do as I please to some better paying job at FAANG or the likes.