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The community that for months has been preaching the virtues of the currency nobody can control is suddenly arguing that a middleman should roll back a bunch of

The community that for months has been preaching the virtues of the currency nobody can control is suddenly arguing that a middleman should roll back a bunch of free-market transactions. I decided a while ago that arguing against the "bitcoin has no problems" crowd was futile: people are too enamored with the idea to see problems like this until they happen.

robryan 15y ago
The exchange does seem to go against the primary purpose of the currency.
- sunchild 15y ago
  I agree, but without a credible exchange of any kind, you're left with party-to-party bartering, and no real means for pegging prices. Just like every other currency/commodity.
  - Stormbringer 15y ago
    If it is laggy, has security problems and the people running it are spreading deliberate falsehoods in order to cover their asses... ... it ain't credible. On the other hand, it sounds like they would have a great career path at the federal reserve...
    - stanleydrew 15y ago
      "On the other hand, it sounds like they would have a great career path at the federal reserve..." I don't mean to be too harsh, but I can't see any value in this part of your comment. It will only possibly lead to derailment of this discussion.
      - Stormbringer 15y ago
        Quick! Somebody invent software which will allow people to have discussions that branch! Otherwise the dreadful disaster of discussion derailment will doom us daily!
wmf 15y ago
The community opinion is far from unanimous; a lot of people on the forum are arguing that rollbacks are against the spirit of Bitcoin.
ohashi 15y ago
The whole spectacle is rather amusing. They are learning about why money is handled the way it is.
danboarder 15y ago
It's not a BitCoin problem, this entire episode revolves around one exchange (MtGox) and its security problems. Mt Gox Exchange =/= BTC Currency Nasdaq Exchange =/= USD Currency
- william42 15y ago
  Out of curiosity, how big is Mt. Gox compared to the other bitcoin exchanges?
  - bskari 15y ago
    http://www.bitcoincharts.com http://www.bitcoincharts.com lists the daily trading volume of various exchanges. I think the numbers for Mt. Gox represent the volume before things went sour, so based on that, Mt. Gox sees almost 30 times the volume of the next largest exchange.
  - rmc 15y ago
    MtGox has about 90% of the bitcoin change market.
    - dedward 15y ago
      I'm probably thinking of something different - but wasn't it clear in the bitcoin protocol itself that if a single actor controlled a majority percentage of the bitcoins out there, the model falls apart and is at risk?
      - rmc 15y ago
        Sorry, we have our wires crossed. You can still transfer bitcoins from one person to the other. An exchange is a website that allows you convert bitcoins in USD. MtGox controlled about 90% of the BTC↔USD conversions.
- haberman 15y ago
  The market intervention that people are demanding is only possible because Mt Gox is a centralized exchange. Had this been a hack of a pure BitCoin client, it would have been even worse, because the theft would have been irreversible. If the community wants rollbacks when transactions aren't "fair," what's the point of BitCoin again?
olefoo 15y ago
There appears to be a real market demand for a currency that is not controlled by a national government, especially one that has the features of cash-like transactions. That bitcoin is lacking as an implementation is immaterial, people want it for whatever reason.
- anamax 15y ago
  > There appears to be a real market demand for a currency that is not controlled by a national government, especially one that has the features of cash-like transactions. That bitcoin is lacking as an implementation is immaterial, people want it for whatever reason. "We must do something, {random} is something, therefore we must do {random}" is generally regarded as a fallacy.
  - raganwald 15y ago
    It is the Politician's Fallacy, usually attributed to the fictional Sir Humphrey Appleby from the brilliant TV series Yes Minister.
  - olefoo 15y ago
    I was noting the phenomenon, not advocating for or against.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
haberman 15y ago
From the message board: "Folks, in the grown-up world, trades are unwound when the market malfunctions. --Jeff Garzik, bitcoin core dev team" In the grown-up world, currency is controlled by governments, the financial industry is regulated, and money cannot be transferred large distances anonymously. The whole sales pitch of BitCoin is that it is free of all this control. Invoking "the grown-up world" to describe BitCoin is absurd.
- perfunctory 15y ago
  > Invoking "the grown-up world" to describe BitCoin is absurd. So true.
- enneff 15y ago
  This is an exchange issue, not a BitCoin issue. The exchange is entitled to behave however it wants. In fact, if it wants to remain profitable it should behave in a responsible, reliable way. In this case it means appeasing the majority of its users.
  - danssig 15y ago
    That's not how the market works. It's the few who win, not the many.
- icebraining 15y ago
  Where exactly do you live? Many offshore banks offer privacy even against police authorities, and tax evasion reaches billions per year. The crackdown on that is fairly recent (5-10 years) and still very ineffective. The main reason why Bitcoin can't be considered grown-up is because there aren't guys like Soisson showing up dead.
  - ashconnor 15y ago
    >Many offshore banks offer privacy even against police authorities No they don't. I think the FATF would have words with countries that allowed this to happen.
patio11 15y ago
This would make no sense if you supported a decentralized cryptocurrency, but would make perfect sense if you were worried about losing the ability to cash out of your penny stock of choice when, due to freak coincidence, a separate scam targeting the same stock imploded prior to you being able to unload the shares you had acquired for fractions of a cent at $17+ each. The Bitcoin "community" is an emergent, distributed boiler room. They could just as easily be selling pink clam shells, tulips, or shares in an insolvent company that had a business plan to make pool cleaning agents. The underlying commodity doesn't matter. What does matter is that the widely disbursing the underlying commodity early gave them enough of a following, including folks who are savvy enough to think that they are the ones getting rich off the marks (a classic element of fraud), to attempt to convince other people that there is actually intrinsic value in what they are selling. Every article about Bitcoin which makes it to HN -- yes, including ones in mainstream publications -- is in effect a PR hit planted by a new breed of the old boiler room scam.
- pnathan 15y ago
  If you want to view BTC as a commodity, it does look very boiler-room-y. If you want to view BTC as a currency, it doesn't look that way... IMO.
  - joe_the_user 15y ago
    Uh, BTC appears entirely dysfunctional as currency. "currency refers to a generally accepted medium of exchange." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency BTC is neither generally accepted nor does it have the STABLE VALUE needed to become more accepted as a medium of exchange. And last element is something the Bitcommunists just utterly miss. Because a currency is medium, just a means, it will not function unless its value is stable. Not decreasing OR increasing. Whenever the BTC shills tout the increasing value, they've accomplished the old "switch-a-roo" from currency to speculative commodity.
    - pnathan 15y ago
      Well, as a currency, for it to 'increase in value', it needs to be more broadly accepted. That would increase ability for people to use it. But currencies are also dual-purposed as commodities (c.f., forex traders).
Gormo 15y ago
I think the problem here is the existence of Mt Gox itself. It seems like creating a centralized exchange for a currency that does not yet have a real economy associated with it - and which has been hyped by the internet meme machine - is just asking for the currency to become the victim of wild speculation. Especially when the exchange is just a spot market - speculation in futures and options wouldn't undermine the viability of the currency as an actual means of exchange in the way that this situation will.

robryan 15y ago

The exchange does seem to go against the primary purpose of the currency.

sunchild 15y ago
I agree, but without a credible exchange of any kind, you're left with party-to-party bartering, and no real means for pegging prices. Just like every other currency/commodity.
- Stormbringer 15y ago
  If it is laggy, has security problems and the people running it are spreading deliberate falsehoods in order to cover their asses... ... it ain't credible. On the other hand, it sounds like they would have a great career path at the federal reserve...
  - stanleydrew 15y ago
    "On the other hand, it sounds like they would have a great career path at the federal reserve..." I don't mean to be too harsh, but I can't see any value in this part of your comment. It will only possibly lead to derailment of this discussion.
    - Stormbringer 15y ago
      Quick! Somebody invent software which will allow people to have discussions that branch! Otherwise the dreadful disaster of discussion derailment will doom us daily!

wmf 15y ago

The community opinion is far from unanimous; a lot of people on the forum are arguing that rollbacks are against the spirit of Bitcoin.

ohashi 15y ago

The whole spectacle is rather amusing. They are learning about why money is handled the way it is.

danboarder 15y ago

It's not a BitCoin problem, this entire episode revolves around one exchange (MtGox) and its security problems. Mt Gox Exchange =/= BTC Currency Nasdaq Exchange =/= USD Currency

william42 15y ago
Out of curiosity, how big is Mt. Gox compared to the other bitcoin exchanges?
- bskari 15y ago
  http://www.bitcoincharts.com http://www.bitcoincharts.com lists the daily trading volume of various exchanges. I think the numbers for Mt. Gox represent the volume before things went sour, so based on that, Mt. Gox sees almost 30 times the volume of the next largest exchange.
- rmc 15y ago
  MtGox has about 90% of the bitcoin change market.
  - dedward 15y ago
    I'm probably thinking of something different - but wasn't it clear in the bitcoin protocol itself that if a single actor controlled a majority percentage of the bitcoins out there, the model falls apart and is at risk?
    - rmc 15y ago
      Sorry, we have our wires crossed. You can still transfer bitcoins from one person to the other. An exchange is a website that allows you convert bitcoins in USD. MtGox controlled about 90% of the BTC↔USD conversions.
haberman 15y ago
The market intervention that people are demanding is only possible because Mt Gox is a centralized exchange. Had this been a hack of a pure BitCoin client, it would have been even worse, because the theft would have been irreversible. If the community wants rollbacks when transactions aren't "fair," what's the point of BitCoin again?

olefoo 15y ago

There appears to be a real market demand for a currency that is not controlled by a national government, especially one that has the features of cash-like transactions. That bitcoin is lacking as an implementation is immaterial, people want it for whatever reason.

anamax 15y ago
> There appears to be a real market demand for a currency that is not controlled by a national government, especially one that has the features of cash-like transactions. That bitcoin is lacking as an implementation is immaterial, people want it for whatever reason. "We must do something, {random} is something, therefore we must do {random}" is generally regarded as a fallacy.
- raganwald 15y ago
  It is the Politician's Fallacy, usually attributed to the fictional Sir Humphrey Appleby from the brilliant TV series Yes Minister.
- olefoo 15y ago
  I was noting the phenomenon, not advocating for or against.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

haberman 15y ago

From the message board: "Folks, in the grown-up world, trades are unwound when the market malfunctions. --Jeff Garzik, bitcoin core dev team" In the grown-up world, currency is controlled by governments, the financial industry is regulated, and money cannot be transferred large distances anonymously. The whole sales pitch of BitCoin is that it is free of all this control. Invoking "the grown-up world" to describe BitCoin is absurd.

perfunctory 15y ago
> Invoking "the grown-up world" to describe BitCoin is absurd. So true.
enneff 15y ago
This is an exchange issue, not a BitCoin issue. The exchange is entitled to behave however it wants. In fact, if it wants to remain profitable it should behave in a responsible, reliable way. In this case it means appeasing the majority of its users.
- danssig 15y ago
  That's not how the market works. It's the few who win, not the many.
icebraining 15y ago
Where exactly do you live? Many offshore banks offer privacy even against police authorities, and tax evasion reaches billions per year. The crackdown on that is fairly recent (5-10 years) and still very ineffective. The main reason why Bitcoin can't be considered grown-up is because there aren't guys like Soisson showing up dead.
- ashconnor 15y ago
  >Many offshore banks offer privacy even against police authorities No they don't. I think the FATF would have words with countries that allowed this to happen.

patio11 15y ago

This would make no sense if you supported a decentralized cryptocurrency, but would make perfect sense if you were worried about losing the ability to cash out of your penny stock of choice when, due to freak coincidence, a separate scam targeting the same stock imploded prior to you being able to unload the shares you had acquired for fractions of a cent at $17+ each. The Bitcoin "community" is an emergent, distributed boiler room. They could just as easily be selling pink clam shells, tulips, or shares in an insolvent company that had a business plan to make pool cleaning agents. The underlying commodity doesn't matter. What does matter is that the widely disbursing the underlying commodity early gave them enough of a following, including folks who are savvy enough to think that they are the ones getting rich off the marks (a classic element of fraud), to attempt to convince other people that there is actually intrinsic value in what they are selling. Every article about Bitcoin which makes it to HN -- yes, including ones in mainstream publications -- is in effect a PR hit planted by a new breed of the old boiler room scam.

pnathan 15y ago
If you want to view BTC as a commodity, it does look very boiler-room-y. If you want to view BTC as a currency, it doesn't look that way... IMO.
- joe_the_user 15y ago
  Uh, BTC appears entirely dysfunctional as currency. "currency refers to a generally accepted medium of exchange." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency BTC is neither generally accepted nor does it have the STABLE VALUE needed to become more accepted as a medium of exchange. And last element is something the Bitcommunists just utterly miss. Because a currency is medium, just a means, it will not function unless its value is stable. Not decreasing OR increasing. Whenever the BTC shills tout the increasing value, they've accomplished the old "switch-a-roo" from currency to speculative commodity.
  - pnathan 15y ago
    Well, as a currency, for it to 'increase in value', it needs to be more broadly accepted. That would increase ability for people to use it. But currencies are also dual-purposed as commodities (c.f., forex traders).

Gormo 15y ago

I think the problem here is the existence of Mt Gox itself. It seems like creating a centralized exchange for a currency that does not yet have a real economy associated with it - and which has been hyped by the internet meme machine - is just asking for the currency to become the victim of wild speculation. Especially when the exchange is just a spot market - speculation in futures and options wouldn't undermine the viability of the currency as an actual means of exchange in the way that this situation will.