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It could also be a function of their jobs, which weren't specified in the abstract. While insufficient sleep might cause physical discomfort and contribute to
by buu700 6y ago
It could also be a function of their jobs, which weren't specified in the abstract.
While insufficient sleep might cause physical discomfort and contribute to long-term health problems, if their job weren't highly physically or mentally demanding, I suspect that most people could get through the day with negligible detriment to their short-term economic output after having a cup of coffee.
- eurasiantiger 6y agoThe same can be said for other drugs that raise monoamine neurotransmitter levels, such as amphetamines.
- lifeisstillgood 6y agoI doubt that a study 'Economic Benefits of Meth use on the Urban Poor' would be looked upon so well by the Ethics Board.
- Scoundreller 6y agoMaybe do a retrospective study, but lack of prospective randomization would taint the results.
- tyre 6y agoNo, but you could say “ADHD medication”, much of which is very similar
- jacques_chester 6y agoPlease stop repeating this anti-psychiatric talking point. 1. They are different chemicals. 2. They are administered by different means (inhalation is vastly more impactful than swallowing a tablet). 3. The doses for pharmaceuticals are much lower. By repeating this argument you create prejudice against those of us who live with ADHD and rely on medication to function normally.
- eurasiantiger 6y agoYet methamphetamine is prescribed for narcolepsy and ADHD. The trade name is Desoxyn. Note that you are also creating prejudice against an already marginalized group of people, a subset of whom may have undiagnosed ADHD.
- reducesuffering 6y ago> Please stop repeating this anti-psychiatric talking point. That's rich. Here's a prominent psychiatrist's view (who btw, supports and does prescribe amphetamine adhd medication): "There's a lot of confusion around the difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine. On the one hand you have anti-psychiatry activists who will say that using Adderall for ADHD is exactly like giving kids crystal meth; on the other you'll have people who say that obviously normal amphetamine is okay, but meth-amphetamine is a demonic substance that will hijack your brain and destroy your life. The truth is more complicated. Methamphetamine crosses the blood-brain barrier more effectively than unsubstituted amphetamine, but I'm not sure how much that matters since people take different doses of both, and a high dose of unsubstituted will end up with more reaching the brain than a low dose of meth. It seems to inhibit the dopamine transporter more effectively, which might matter, but I'm not enough of a pharmacologist to know how much. Meth takes effect more quickly, which seems to increase addictiveness in a sort of behaviorist sense where the sooner a stimulus gets reinforced, the more rewarding it will feel. I think there's been a little bit more research since then, but the general takeaway - that the science doesn't support the vast gulf between these two drugs in the popular imagination - still seems true."[0] [0]https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
- Teknoman117 6y agoMany countries in the WW2 era sold amphetamine based drugs as antidepressants, for "creating the right attitude", making your wife focus on housework, etc. (and other rather disturbing things). Essentially, drugging workers doing low-skill tasks to make them more cooperative or productive or something. I wonder how much research was done at the time and has been done in retrospect.
- supert56 6y agoSounds a lot like Brave New World
- hutzlibu 6y agoWhich was written around that time (even a bit before) ...
- sofixa 6y agoAnd the German Army in WW2 heavily used meth ( pervitin iirc) to keep focused and going on for longer
- eurasiantiger 6y agoAnd still in 2021 most people are entirely unaware that their affectionately named ”morning joe” contains other mind-altering chemicals in addition to caffeine: Harmala alkaloids that slow down the normal breakdown of neurotransmitters and slowly build up in brain fatty tissues, increasing tolerance and lengthening withdrawal symptoms to many months.
- anticensor 6y agoStimulant overdosage can cause permanent brain damage.
- WarOnPrivacy 6y agoAs does driving a car at 120mph in bumper to bumper traffic. Fortunately these things are outside the scope of this conversation.
- eurasiantiger 6y agoThat brain damage is not caused by the stimulants per se, but the rise in body temperature caused by stimulants. Don’t do meth on a hot day.
- barry-cotter 6y agoThe average teacher’s job is reasonably mentally demanding but despite waking and starting work at unnaturally early hours (in the US and China) people do acceptably with coffee. The students do worse because the schedule is even more divergent from their natural sleep schedule and they’re less likely to have coffee or other stimulants.
- BrandoElFollito 6y agoWhat time do they start work in the US?
- Consultant32452 6y agoMy daughter's school starts at 7am, so she has to be up by 5:45am. It's stupid.
- spockz 6y agoThat is really crazy early! Where is this? My high school started at 08:10 (I think) and elementary school at 08:15 and those were the earliest starters in the neighbourhood. University luckily started around 9.
- BrandoElFollito 6y agoAh. That's indeed early. In France kindergarten and primary school starts at 8:30 and ends at 16:30. Mid and high school at 8 or 9, never earlier. This is very early for children and teens, really not physiological.
- prawn 6y agoIn Australia, at least where I am, from ages 5-17 school is generally 8:45 to 15:15.
- deviantfero 6y agoIn my country it's the same, I think it is done that way because most people jobs start at 8 or 9, there's no school bus system, only private transport for kids going to school, so this schedule gives a chance for parents to drop off their kids at school and make it to work afterwards. Personally I hated it at the time, because getting up early is not my thing, but now I appreciate the time I got to talk with my parents on my way to school thanks to that schedule arrangement. Also to offset this early getting up, we jus went to bed earlier, like at 9pm or 10pm max, so not sure it really made a difference on anything.
- rorykoehler 6y agoPoor people aren't doing brain work but instead do manual labor etc. It definitely should be a core part of any study to highlight this.
- artem247 6y agoIn my country poor people are: doctors and nurses who work at state hospitals(most of them), teachers at state schools, university professors(both state and private ones), engineers who work at such government facilities as nuclear plants and the like, scientists in general and also some government officials. All them make roughly 10-20% percent of what moderately skillful software engineer could make, in the same city and country. Just for the reference.
- davnn 6y agoSounds pretty unrealistic, what country do you live in?
- AussieWog93 6y agoHe's arguing they're poorer than the average software engineer, not poorer than a factory worker. I'd put my money on Eastern Europe or South America.
- ido 6y agoMaybe also south or south-east asia (aside from the asian tiger)?
- artem247 6y agoTo put it into context, no, these people make around the same as factory worker. Work conditions would be much nicer, still. Schoolteachers are considered 'poor' by other Ukrainians (who are not too well-off themselves) compared to other occupations without taking into account SW jobs and anything like that.
- artem247 6y ago
- DecayingOrganic 6y agoThey employed 452 adults for a one-month data-entry job, which the authors say it's "a relatively cognitively-demanding task intended to be sensitive to sleep deprivation." As a side note, the study also says that short afternoon naps increased productivity.
- dalbasal 6y agoWow. That should have been in the abstract. 452 adults hired for a one-month job intended to be sensitive to sleep deprivation sounds pretty robust.
- signal11 6y agoChennai's extremely hot. Having been there, intuitively I'd suspect a Spain-like siesta would work very well there and boost productivity. The nights there are extremely warm too. I wonder if that's a factor in ensuring that 5.5 hours of sleep is no worse than 8?
- Erikun 6y agoI don't know how well it compares to a spanish siesta but the abstract ends with "In contrast, short afternoon naps at the workplace improved an overall index of outcomes by 0.12 standard deviations, with significant increases in productivity, psychological well-being, and cognition, but a decrease in work time."
- peepholeperson 6y ago*5.5 vs about 6. The study increased their sleep by 27 minutes, they were still under-slept by 2 hours.
- eMSF 6y agoAFAIK not anything below 8 hours qualifies as “under-sleeping”; instead, the need of sleep typically varies between 6 to 9 hours for healthy adults.
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