6 ms·

It's pretty wild how small his offense was too. Very subtle veiled criticism of CCP fiscal policy, and now he's being completely dismantled.

jdc 6y ago
"Punish one, teach a hundred" - Mao Tse-Tung
- jhvkjhk 6y ago
  Don’t address A’s words to B. “Punish one, teach a hundred” is from the Book of Han, long before the born of Chairman Mao.
  - jdc 6y ago
    Thanks - I was aware there was a Latin precursor but I didn't know about the Book of Han!
  - mannerheim 6y ago
    I've never heard this saying, although along similar lines there is 'kill the chicken to scare the monkey' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_the_chicken_to_scare_the_monkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_the_chicken_to_scare_the_...
- emmelaich 6y ago
  Also Voltaire in Candide: > ".. in this country it is found good, from time to time, to kill one Admiral to encourage the others.” https://wordhistories.net/2016/10/22/pour-encourager-les-autres/ https://wordhistories.net/2016/10/22/pour-encourager-les-aut...
SECProto 6y ago
Here's [1] Cory Doctorow's take on why this wasn't actually some capricious treatment by the CCP over some minor infraction [1] https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1324391639628959745 https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1324391639628959745
- foerbert 6y ago
  Non-twitter link, in case that would have been useful for anybody else. https://pluralistic.net/2020/11/05/gotta-be-a-pony-under-there/#jack-ma https://pluralistic.net/2020/11/05/gotta-be-a-pony-under-the...
  - SECProto 6y ago
    Thanks, I had originally seen it on twitter or else I would've sent the blog post directly. Iirc it's something like 60 tweets so the post is definitely better!
  - kortilla 6y ago
    How can people stand this kind of writing? It assumes conclusions for all kinds of things that are not agreed on. It’s intellectually lazy even for people who agree with these views (“heavy slant towards finance being optimally a utility”, “Uber/Lyft ‘misclassifying’ workers”, etc). This is Fox News level opining.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
      It is an opinion. And it is interesting precisely, because it is not common and it forces you to reconcile your currently held beliefs and opinions with the authors. Frankly, I read much worse.
      - kortilla 6y ago
        It’s treated like an accepted fact though, not an opinion. That’s intellectually lazy.
        SECProto 6y ago
        > It’s treated like an accepted fact though, not an opinion Hope you've never read the "opinions" section in a newspaper! Or the comments in the thread above mine. This one actually cites a lot more references/sources than a typical editorial. I specifically linked it as "here is Cory Doctorow's take on [the situation]". I don't endorse it wholely, but I found it very interesting. > That’s intellectually lazy. Doctorow's take is much, much, much less intellectually lazy on the causes behind Ant's IPO shutdown/Alibaba's antitrust fine/Jack Ma's withdrawal from most public facing activities than comments I was responding to (ie "[the CCP is being so capricious!]" <1> or "Look how small his offense was!" <2>) <1> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26766726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26766726 <2> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26766748 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26766748
hellbannedguy 6y ago
Maybe it was more than the critism. They might have wanted more competition all along. I don't know enough to debate though. Why do I feel the CCP is happy with the world's view of their system of a few guys with big egos whom pull are the strings. (I purposesly didn't use question marks. I don't want to debate. I'm suprised any system with Communism intrgrated in its name is doing great economically, and on other stages. I will never just assume any polital system that incorporates Communists are destined to fail, and of all nations, China worries me the most.)
- enkid 6y ago
  China has a huge workforce to exploit, and its a lot easier to catch up then to lead the way. That's the main reason their doing well economically
- chid 6y ago
  My guess based off my readings is that this view is what gives them their place in society not to be questioned. If the economic and social outcomes most people are happy with, faith in the party is maintained. It is an interesting contrast with the political system in the west where it feels like politicians don’t like to take responsibility for actions and blame it on large corporates... who work within the frameworks they have designed
k_sze 6y ago
I think there is a version of the story that the West somehow doesn’t hear a lot about. In Mainland China, the sudden interference of the government is attributed to the discovery of the stake of Jiang Zemin’s faction in Ant Group. It’s not a direct stake, but obfuscated through a chain of ownerships. JZM’s faction is nowadays widely seen in Mainland China as being full of corruption and selfish agenda. Naturally, President Xi doesn’t want to see the influence of JZM’s faction over something as large as Ant Group, so the government decided to halt the IPO before it got too big.
- dkural 6y ago
  Why wouldn't the west want to see this? If a former politician the government dislikes owns shares in a company, the government should not simply punish the company - including all the other shareholders, many of whom are small retail investors and pension funds! If a former corrupt politician is the real issue, it needs to prove in an independent court there is corruption; and not punish some third party.
  - k_sze 6y ago
    > If a former politician the government dislikes owns shares in a company, the government should not simply punish the company - including all the other shareholders, many of whom are small retail investors and pension funds! If a former corrupt politician is the real issue, it needs to prove in an independent court there is corruption; and not punish some third party. The only thing I can say is: “That’s just not the way politics works in China.”
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
      I will add to this a parahrase from a person I personally dislike: John Bolton. It goes something like this. When presenting their case, communist dictatorships tend blame things on mythical hardliners. Here too we have a scapegoat. The theme is different, but the tone is so familiar. That's not a shot at communist dictatorships. They do it, because as a negotiating tactic it tends to work. It is not unlike telling salesman you need to run something by your wife.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I'm pretty sure it was a convenient way for them to show that no one is above Xi Jinping and his reach, even for a relatively minor infraction in the eyes of the CCP.

jdc 6y ago

"Punish one, teach a hundred" - Mao Tse-Tung

jhvkjhk 6y ago
Don’t address A’s words to B. “Punish one, teach a hundred” is from the Book of Han, long before the born of Chairman Mao.
- jdc 6y ago
  Thanks - I was aware there was a Latin precursor but I didn't know about the Book of Han!
- mannerheim 6y ago
  I've never heard this saying, although along similar lines there is 'kill the chicken to scare the monkey' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_the_chicken_to_scare_the_monkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_the_chicken_to_scare_the_...
emmelaich 6y ago
Also Voltaire in Candide: > ".. in this country it is found good, from time to time, to kill one Admiral to encourage the others.” https://wordhistories.net/2016/10/22/pour-encourager-les-autres/ https://wordhistories.net/2016/10/22/pour-encourager-les-aut...

SECProto 6y ago

Here's [1] Cory Doctorow's take on why this wasn't actually some capricious treatment by the CCP over some minor infraction [1] https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1324391639628959745 https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1324391639628959745

foerbert 6y ago
Non-twitter link, in case that would have been useful for anybody else. https://pluralistic.net/2020/11/05/gotta-be-a-pony-under-there/#jack-ma https://pluralistic.net/2020/11/05/gotta-be-a-pony-under-the...
- SECProto 6y ago
  Thanks, I had originally seen it on twitter or else I would've sent the blog post directly. Iirc it's something like 60 tweets so the post is definitely better!
- kortilla 6y ago
  How can people stand this kind of writing? It assumes conclusions for all kinds of things that are not agreed on. It’s intellectually lazy even for people who agree with these views (“heavy slant towards finance being optimally a utility”, “Uber/Lyft ‘misclassifying’ workers”, etc). This is Fox News level opining.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
    It is an opinion. And it is interesting precisely, because it is not common and it forces you to reconcile your currently held beliefs and opinions with the authors. Frankly, I read much worse.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      It’s treated like an accepted fact though, not an opinion. That’s intellectually lazy.
      - SECProto 6y ago
        > It’s treated like an accepted fact though, not an opinion Hope you've never read the "opinions" section in a newspaper! Or the comments in the thread above mine. This one actually cites a lot more references/sources than a typical editorial. I specifically linked it as "here is Cory Doctorow's take on [the situation]". I don't endorse it wholely, but I found it very interesting. > That’s intellectually lazy. Doctorow's take is much, much, much less intellectually lazy on the causes behind Ant's IPO shutdown/Alibaba's antitrust fine/Jack Ma's withdrawal from most public facing activities than comments I was responding to (ie "[the CCP is being so capricious!]" <1> or "Look how small his offense was!" <2>) <1> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26766726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26766726 <2> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26766748 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26766748

hellbannedguy 6y ago

Maybe it was more than the critism. They might have wanted more competition all along. I don't know enough to debate though. Why do I feel the CCP is happy with the world's view of their system of a few guys with big egos whom pull are the strings. (I purposesly didn't use question marks. I don't want to debate. I'm suprised any system with Communism intrgrated in its name is doing great economically, and on other stages. I will never just assume any polital system that incorporates Communists are destined to fail, and of all nations, China worries me the most.)

enkid 6y ago
China has a huge workforce to exploit, and its a lot easier to catch up then to lead the way. That's the main reason their doing well economically
chid 6y ago
My guess based off my readings is that this view is what gives them their place in society not to be questioned. If the economic and social outcomes most people are happy with, faith in the party is maintained. It is an interesting contrast with the political system in the west where it feels like politicians don’t like to take responsibility for actions and blame it on large corporates... who work within the frameworks they have designed

k_sze 6y ago

I think there is a version of the story that the West somehow doesn’t hear a lot about. In Mainland China, the sudden interference of the government is attributed to the discovery of the stake of Jiang Zemin’s faction in Ant Group. It’s not a direct stake, but obfuscated through a chain of ownerships. JZM’s faction is nowadays widely seen in Mainland China as being full of corruption and selfish agenda. Naturally, President Xi doesn’t want to see the influence of JZM’s faction over something as large as Ant Group, so the government decided to halt the IPO before it got too big.

dkural 6y ago
Why wouldn't the west want to see this? If a former politician the government dislikes owns shares in a company, the government should not simply punish the company - including all the other shareholders, many of whom are small retail investors and pension funds! If a former corrupt politician is the real issue, it needs to prove in an independent court there is corruption; and not punish some third party.
- k_sze 6y ago
  > If a former politician the government dislikes owns shares in a company, the government should not simply punish the company - including all the other shareholders, many of whom are small retail investors and pension funds! If a former corrupt politician is the real issue, it needs to prove in an independent court there is corruption; and not punish some third party. The only thing I can say is: “That’s just not the way politics works in China.”
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
    I will add to this a parahrase from a person I personally dislike: John Bolton. It goes something like this. When presenting their case, communist dictatorships tend blame things on mythical hardliners. Here too we have a scapegoat. The theme is different, but the tone is so familiar. That's not a shot at communist dictatorships. They do it, because as a negotiating tactic it tends to work. It is not unlike telling salesman you need to run something by your wife.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

I'm pretty sure it was a convenient way for them to show that no one is above Xi Jinping and his reach, even for a relatively minor infraction in the eyes of the CCP.