5 ms·

It's well considered by a lot of people in the industry that a prospective's grades and even which school they went to aren't a good predictor of skill.

briefcomment 5y ago
Unless you have them actually work with you for a month, they're certainly the best predicators available for new grads with no portfolios right? FWIW, the most effective colleagues I've worked with all scored really high on standardized tests. They're a great predictor imo
- codenesium 5y ago
  The best programmers I know didn't go to college. It's been my experience that degrees and standardized test don't tell you jack about how well someone will do a job.
  - briefcomment 5y ago
    I bet if you gave them a standardized test (even any IQ test), they would crush it
  - astrange 5y ago
    Most likely due to Berkson’s paradox. Short NBA players are just as good as tall NBA players but that doesn’t mean height isn’t good in basketball.
- lmeyerov 5y ago
  for startups, new grads with good portfolios and ok grades > new grads with good grades and ok portfolios likewise, new grads with a story of upward trajectory & energy > new grads who coast on what their parents/school setup the bet being made is they'll put in the hard work and achieve the personal growth to progress quickly, and they'll roll with the uncertainties of startups. grades do hint at the hard work, and youth suggests dealing with uncertainty, but not as well as succeeding at difficult and fuzzily-defined projects. if they've done that before, better chance they'll do it again. outside of startups, priorities change. big orgs need people who won't risk the cash cow. consultancies need people with better credentials than their customers. etc.
  - spdionis 5y ago
    The best programmers I know never had a portfolio.
    - barry-cotter 5y ago
      What? The best programmers you know got that way without accumulating a body of work?
      - yuliyp 5y ago
        Different people have different ways of learning and working. Some people build a bunch of stuff. Others build toys, others may just focus on their primary jobs and don't have a portfolio of things they can share.
        barry-cotter 5y ago
        All of those qualify as a body of work. The last one isn’t a body of work you can share but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
        jfrunyon 5y ago
        You are the one who said body of work, the other person said portfolio. Stuff that you can't share isn't a portfolio.
        lmeyerov 5y ago
        most students don't work on classified fbi projects, see in the thread on some of the projects I've seen undergrads involved in that are more demonstrative than grades. a project portfolio is just a cv section that focuses on the projects and your involvement, and hopefully ways for the interviewer to see it and the code, but even descriptions and screenshots go far for the interview conversation. most good cs programs have significant project components, and students not putting in their project time there are often doing so elsewhere. if not, they may have the potential to be good at projects, but tbd. without other strong signals, probably fewer startups are in a good position to take that bet. also, going beyond students, the top programmers I've worked with have a history of great public and private projects - papers, $100B companies, top frameworks, launched top products, record breaking results, news articles around their impact, etc. The main exceptions are 'lifer at apple' types and 'works at secret bank', but most hop jobs enough that it's not an issue. A top group I see that really struggle a lot are 'lifer at secret gov agency x', which gets many of them stuck in the defense contractor round door. we may have different experiences for what top means and what they help achieve. Who is this silent majority of top 1% programmers that don't have any referenceable projects? And more to the point, top intern candidates?
- tester756 5y ago
  I'll speak from perspective of average CS in E. Europe people who were the best at my year were mostly focused on jobs / real world software development and just wanted to get degree, so just pass the exams and projects effortlessly but I've been studying at weekends, so I may be biased.
tjpnz 5y ago
Is the school thing a strictly American phenomenon? In New Zealand for instance all that tends to matter is which city/town you want to live in and whether the institution offers the field you want to major in (medicine for example is only offered by Otago IIRC). I've only been asked for grades once in the previous 12 years where at which point I withdrew my application.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  In some cases, school is a legal way to discriminate. The top tier companies incorporate recruiting into their culture. If you recruit at Brown, you’re going to get a different candidate than some CUNY school. They all tested well in high school or have parents with good networks, and they tend to look and quack alike.
  - delaynomore 5y ago
    "Culture fit" is just another way to discriminate a candidate based on race, age, or gender. HR from my company has explicitly told all interviewers not to use "culture fit" as a reason to disqualify a candidate presumably to avoid potential lawsuits.
- astrange 5y ago
  Yes, America has more school inequality than other countries (although it’s not the only one, Oxford and Tokyo U also exist). Part of this is because they’re so good they suppress top international schools from forming in other countries. But also they teach in English and I assume it’s harder for international students to attend a French or Chinese school.

briefcomment 5y ago

Unless you have them actually work with you for a month, they're certainly the best predicators available for new grads with no portfolios right? FWIW, the most effective colleagues I've worked with all scored really high on standardized tests. They're a great predictor imo

codenesium 5y ago
The best programmers I know didn't go to college. It's been my experience that degrees and standardized test don't tell you jack about how well someone will do a job.
- briefcomment 5y ago
  I bet if you gave them a standardized test (even any IQ test), they would crush it
- astrange 5y ago
  Most likely due to Berkson’s paradox. Short NBA players are just as good as tall NBA players but that doesn’t mean height isn’t good in basketball.
lmeyerov 5y ago
for startups, new grads with good portfolios and ok grades > new grads with good grades and ok portfolios likewise, new grads with a story of upward trajectory & energy > new grads who coast on what their parents/school setup the bet being made is they'll put in the hard work and achieve the personal growth to progress quickly, and they'll roll with the uncertainties of startups. grades do hint at the hard work, and youth suggests dealing with uncertainty, but not as well as succeeding at difficult and fuzzily-defined projects. if they've done that before, better chance they'll do it again. outside of startups, priorities change. big orgs need people who won't risk the cash cow. consultancies need people with better credentials than their customers. etc.
- spdionis 5y ago
  The best programmers I know never had a portfolio.
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    What? The best programmers you know got that way without accumulating a body of work?
    - yuliyp 5y ago
      Different people have different ways of learning and working. Some people build a bunch of stuff. Others build toys, others may just focus on their primary jobs and don't have a portfolio of things they can share.
      - barry-cotter 5y ago
        All of those qualify as a body of work. The last one isn’t a body of work you can share but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
        jfrunyon 5y ago
        You are the one who said body of work, the other person said portfolio. Stuff that you can't share isn't a portfolio.
        lmeyerov 5y ago
        most students don't work on classified fbi projects, see in the thread on some of the projects I've seen undergrads involved in that are more demonstrative than grades. a project portfolio is just a cv section that focuses on the projects and your involvement, and hopefully ways for the interviewer to see it and the code, but even descriptions and screenshots go far for the interview conversation. most good cs programs have significant project components, and students not putting in their project time there are often doing so elsewhere. if not, they may have the potential to be good at projects, but tbd. without other strong signals, probably fewer startups are in a good position to take that bet. also, going beyond students, the top programmers I've worked with have a history of great public and private projects - papers, $100B companies, top frameworks, launched top products, record breaking results, news articles around their impact, etc. The main exceptions are 'lifer at apple' types and 'works at secret bank', but most hop jobs enough that it's not an issue. A top group I see that really struggle a lot are 'lifer at secret gov agency x', which gets many of them stuck in the defense contractor round door. we may have different experiences for what top means and what they help achieve. Who is this silent majority of top 1% programmers that don't have any referenceable projects? And more to the point, top intern candidates?
tester756 5y ago
I'll speak from perspective of average CS in E. Europe people who were the best at my year were mostly focused on jobs / real world software development and just wanted to get degree, so just pass the exams and projects effortlessly but I've been studying at weekends, so I may be biased.

tjpnz 5y ago

Is the school thing a strictly American phenomenon? In New Zealand for instance all that tends to matter is which city/town you want to live in and whether the institution offers the field you want to major in (medicine for example is only offered by Otago IIRC). I've only been asked for grades once in the previous 12 years where at which point I withdrew my application.

Spooky23 5y ago
In some cases, school is a legal way to discriminate. The top tier companies incorporate recruiting into their culture. If you recruit at Brown, you’re going to get a different candidate than some CUNY school. They all tested well in high school or have parents with good networks, and they tend to look and quack alike.
- delaynomore 5y ago
  "Culture fit" is just another way to discriminate a candidate based on race, age, or gender. HR from my company has explicitly told all interviewers not to use "culture fit" as a reason to disqualify a candidate presumably to avoid potential lawsuits.
astrange 5y ago
Yes, America has more school inequality than other countries (although it’s not the only one, Oxford and Tokyo U also exist). Part of this is because they’re so good they suppress top international schools from forming in other countries. But also they teach in English and I assume it’s harder for international students to attend a French or Chinese school.