6 ms·

Don’t blame Google for that. It’s Mozilla management failure.

consumer451 5y ago
> Don’t blame Google for that. It’s Mozilla management failure. Is there any reading material online supporting this position? I would tend to agree but my opinion is fairly uninformed.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  https://calpaterson.com/mozilla.html https://calpaterson.com/mozilla.html
  - consumer451 5y ago
    Thank you. I have often thought that leading a shining beacon like Mozilla should and would be done by a previously successful executive who doesn't need the money and would like a challenge. Compensation would be $1/year, everlasting respect, and a true legacy to leave behind. But that's just my vision of panacea I suppose. I respect Mitchell Baker's history at Mozilla but is it time for a change? reference: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/leadership/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/leadership/ edit: changed phrasing and tone
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      She's only been CEO for roughly a year now, and your hope that someone would do that work for free is unrealistic.
      - consumer451 5y ago
        Yeah.. > that's just my vision of panacea I suppose.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        Sorry, it does seem far harsher than I intended it, I'll change it. People often have extremely idealistic views of Mozilla that puts then in a position where they can do no right, and I'll end up debating that idealism while ignoring what was said.
        consumer451 5y ago
        No worries. I understand that his is complex topic and I am coming to it with little knowledge. The reason I thought she had been CEO for years is that I saw in the official bio that she was a co-founder and CEO. I didn't realize the timeline. I should probably learn a lot more prior to making statements like I had previously about change. I also do have the baggage of an anti-administrative bloat bias/agenda which I am may be applying here inappropriately. I was just really disapointed with some of the teams that were removed like Security. I know that money has to come from somewhere and seeing exec compensation go up at the same time was a hard pill to swallow.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        >. I know that money has to come from somewhere and seeing exec compensation go up at the same time was a hard pill to swallow. The last year we have executive salaries from is 2018, while those cuts were in 2020. I suspect executive compensation also fell sharply, I know the number of executives is lower.
    - lallysingh 5y ago
      I also hope that they wear a black costume and fight crime at night. But all we get are police and skilled people who want to be paid what they're worth.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    Usage was down, revenue went way way up, and executive salaries reflected that. As revenue has dropped, I doubt executive salaries have stayed at the same level. It's insane how much flak they get for the CEO making a million dollars more after signing a deal that got them hundreds of millions more dollars a year.
    - consumer451 5y ago
      > It's insane how much flak they get for the CEO making a million dollars more after signing a deal that got them hundreds of millions more dollars a year. I think the derision comes from the fact that this is theoretically a non-profit org.
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        The executives are employees of the Mozilla Corporation, not the nonprofit.
      - lallysingh 5y ago
        If the board had paid the same amount and gotten half the return from a service or consultant, they would be praised for it. But an employee! Good forbid!
      - st3fan 5y ago
        I'm a senior engineering manager at Mozilla. Are you saying that because Mozilla is a non-profit I should just accept to take a salary that is mediocre or below industry standard? What if we apply that to engineering too? Marketing, operations, SREs .. How do you think that would work out for Mozilla? Do you think we would have any impact if the place was run like that? Do you think we would have much talent on board?
        consumer451 5y ago
        In the interest of clarity and humility, I carry the baggage of having a very large anti-executive/administration/overhead bias. I was trying to speak for general sentiment before, which was dumb of me. Let me attempt to clarify my personal thinking: if for example there was a Patreon where I could give money to Mozilla engineering salaries directly, I would proudly pay $10/month. I would be willing to wager that many others would as well. If orgs want good feels and a write off, sure 501c Mozilla donations, but let’s go beyond all that. How about a Mozilla Security Patreon? How about a Mozilla Rust Pateron? My point is that there is so much good will and money, just on HN, for Mozilla engineering... can we come up with ways to fund engineering directly? I realize there needs to be a CEO, etc, but there should also be a funding structure to pay you and your peers more, directly. Edit: I am just using Patreon as an example of direct creator funding, other mechanisms may be more applicable.
otabdeveloper4 5y ago
I'm guessing the management failure was engineered from the start. Follow the money.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  So blame Yahoo, the ones paying them during the "management failure?"
staticman2 5y ago
Mozilla is competing with the world's biggest advertisement company who can advertise their competition 24/7 and is also competing with the biggest phone company in America who has banned their product and forced their customers to use the phone company's product. This all might have something to do with it.
lallysingh 5y ago
Agreed. Google just wrote the check.
st3fan 5y ago
If only it was so simple that you need great (product) management to have a successful product. Mozilla tries hard and like every other startup or company out there, many ideas or products fail or turn out to not be profitable. There is no magic here. If there was then all startups and all ideas would work.

> Don’t blame Google for that. It’s Mozilla management failure. Is there any reading material online supporting this position? I would tend to agree but my opinion is fairly uninformed.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
https://calpaterson.com/mozilla.html https://calpaterson.com/mozilla.html
- consumer451 5y ago
  Thank you. I have often thought that leading a shining beacon like Mozilla should and would be done by a previously successful executive who doesn't need the money and would like a challenge. Compensation would be $1/year, everlasting respect, and a true legacy to leave behind. But that's just my vision of panacea I suppose. I respect Mitchell Baker's history at Mozilla but is it time for a change? reference: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/leadership/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/leadership/ edit: changed phrasing and tone
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    She's only been CEO for roughly a year now, and your hope that someone would do that work for free is unrealistic.
    - consumer451 5y ago
      Yeah.. > that's just my vision of panacea I suppose.
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        Sorry, it does seem far harsher than I intended it, I'll change it. People often have extremely idealistic views of Mozilla that puts then in a position where they can do no right, and I'll end up debating that idealism while ignoring what was said.
        consumer451 5y ago
        No worries. I understand that his is complex topic and I am coming to it with little knowledge. The reason I thought she had been CEO for years is that I saw in the official bio that she was a co-founder and CEO. I didn't realize the timeline. I should probably learn a lot more prior to making statements like I had previously about change. I also do have the baggage of an anti-administrative bloat bias/agenda which I am may be applying here inappropriately. I was just really disapointed with some of the teams that were removed like Security. I know that money has to come from somewhere and seeing exec compensation go up at the same time was a hard pill to swallow.
        boomboomsubban 5y ago
        >. I know that money has to come from somewhere and seeing exec compensation go up at the same time was a hard pill to swallow. The last year we have executive salaries from is 2018, while those cuts were in 2020. I suspect executive compensation also fell sharply, I know the number of executives is lower.
  - lallysingh 5y ago
    I also hope that they wear a black costume and fight crime at night. But all we get are police and skilled people who want to be paid what they're worth.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  Usage was down, revenue went way way up, and executive salaries reflected that. As revenue has dropped, I doubt executive salaries have stayed at the same level. It's insane how much flak they get for the CEO making a million dollars more after signing a deal that got them hundreds of millions more dollars a year.
  - consumer451 5y ago
    > It's insane how much flak they get for the CEO making a million dollars more after signing a deal that got them hundreds of millions more dollars a year. I think the derision comes from the fact that this is theoretically a non-profit org.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      The executives are employees of the Mozilla Corporation, not the nonprofit.
    - lallysingh 5y ago
      If the board had paid the same amount and gotten half the return from a service or consultant, they would be praised for it. But an employee! Good forbid!
    - st3fan 5y ago
      I'm a senior engineering manager at Mozilla. Are you saying that because Mozilla is a non-profit I should just accept to take a salary that is mediocre or below industry standard? What if we apply that to engineering too? Marketing, operations, SREs .. How do you think that would work out for Mozilla? Do you think we would have any impact if the place was run like that? Do you think we would have much talent on board?
      - consumer451 5y ago
        In the interest of clarity and humility, I carry the baggage of having a very large anti-executive/administration/overhead bias. I was trying to speak for general sentiment before, which was dumb of me. Let me attempt to clarify my personal thinking: if for example there was a Patreon where I could give money to Mozilla engineering salaries directly, I would proudly pay $10/month. I would be willing to wager that many others would as well. If orgs want good feels and a write off, sure 501c Mozilla donations, but let’s go beyond all that. How about a Mozilla Security Patreon? How about a Mozilla Rust Pateron? My point is that there is so much good will and money, just on HN, for Mozilla engineering... can we come up with ways to fund engineering directly? I realize there needs to be a CEO, etc, but there should also be a funding structure to pay you and your peers more, directly. Edit: I am just using Patreon as an example of direct creator funding, other mechanisms may be more applicable.

otabdeveloper4 5y ago

I'm guessing the management failure was engineered from the start. Follow the money.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
So blame Yahoo, the ones paying them during the "management failure?"

staticman2 5y ago

Mozilla is competing with the world's biggest advertisement company who can advertise their competition 24/7 and is also competing with the biggest phone company in America who has banned their product and forced their customers to use the phone company's product. This all might have something to do with it.

lallysingh 5y ago

Agreed. Google just wrote the check.

st3fan 5y ago

If only it was so simple that you need great (product) management to have a successful product. Mozilla tries hard and like every other startup or company out there, many ideas or products fail or turn out to not be profitable. There is no magic here. If there was then all startups and all ideas would work.