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US companies fear lawsuits and firing employees includes a lot of data to back it up, from what I’ve observed. There are so many protected classes and reasons w

US companies fear lawsuits and firing employees includes a lot of data to back it up, from what I’ve observed. There are so many protected classes and reasons why firing is illegal, and people are so litigious, that months of documentation, warnings, improvement plan, etc. is required to fire someone with HR’s approval. And even then usually you give some severance to ensure lawsuit isn’t filed.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago
So removing at-will employment wouldn't be a big deal then? Sounds like it might be a good idea.
- bradleyjg 6y ago
  The paperwork that nervous HR makes American managers go through is an entirely different world then the process, say, a police officer or teacher is entitled to be a combination of civil service laws and their collective bargaining agreements. I do not exaggerate when I say it is in practice easier to put someone in prison than fire a police officer. So partly whether or not it would be a good idea would depend on the details of the proposed law, and how they would end up being interpreted by judges.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    I'm not actually talking about public service unions here, just at-will employment. I personally think that lots of people in this conversation seem to believe that it's either at-will, or the public sector process when in fact the European experience demonstrates that there's a lot of space between these two opposite poles. My position is that given all this HR dance to prevent lawsuits, at-will doesn't really exist in professional jobs, so it might be worth ensuring that this is standard across all roles rather than just those where the fired employee might sue.
    - bradleyjg 6y ago
      If I felt confident that the law as written and applied would end up putting in place more or less what I’ve seen in corporate America: - Do something egregious like steal or curse out a customer and you’ll be escorted off the premises - For poor performance you can get a write up and a meaningful chance to improve before being fired - You can be laid off just because your department / function / office isn’t needed anymore but they do something for you severance-wise I’d support a legal change.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago

So removing at-will employment wouldn't be a big deal then? Sounds like it might be a good idea.

bradleyjg 6y ago
The paperwork that nervous HR makes American managers go through is an entirely different world then the process, say, a police officer or teacher is entitled to be a combination of civil service laws and their collective bargaining agreements. I do not exaggerate when I say it is in practice easier to put someone in prison than fire a police officer. So partly whether or not it would be a good idea would depend on the details of the proposed law, and how they would end up being interpreted by judges.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  I'm not actually talking about public service unions here, just at-will employment. I personally think that lots of people in this conversation seem to believe that it's either at-will, or the public sector process when in fact the European experience demonstrates that there's a lot of space between these two opposite poles. My position is that given all this HR dance to prevent lawsuits, at-will doesn't really exist in professional jobs, so it might be worth ensuring that this is standard across all roles rather than just those where the fired employee might sue.
  - bradleyjg 6y ago
    If I felt confident that the law as written and applied would end up putting in place more or less what I’ve seen in corporate America: - Do something egregious like steal or curse out a customer and you’ll be escorted off the premises - For poor performance you can get a write up and a meaningful chance to improve before being fired - You can be laid off just because your department / function / office isn’t needed anymore but they do something for you severance-wise I’d support a legal change.