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I’ve heard similar things from others (though less so in Southern Europe). However, I don’t think you get there from here by just expanding existing US unions.

I’ve heard similar things from others (though less so in Southern Europe). However, I don’t think you get there from here by just expanding existing US unions. It would take a bigger culture shift.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago
You don't need unions for that, just legislation. In Ireland, you are essentially at-will for the first six months of any role, and after that you are "permanent". This essentially means that there needs to be a process to fire you. You need to supply at least one verbal warning on stated grounds (backed up as a written), then another one and then you can fire someone. It works reasonably well (not always, obviously) and it's super bizarre to me that you don't have that in the US. To be honest, when my previous employer wanted to move me to the US, this was one of my concerns, especially when you're dependent on the job for a visa. It just seems that its a bad trade-off for US people in general, and it's odd to me that it appears to be mostly unquestioned.
- seibelj 6y ago
  US companies fear lawsuits and firing employees includes a lot of data to back it up, from what I’ve observed. There are so many protected classes and reasons why firing is illegal, and people are so litigious, that months of documentation, warnings, improvement plan, etc. is required to fire someone with HR’s approval. And even then usually you give some severance to ensure lawsuit isn’t filed.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    So removing at-will employment wouldn't be a big deal then? Sounds like it might be a good idea.
    - bradleyjg 6y ago
      The paperwork that nervous HR makes American managers go through is an entirely different world then the process, say, a police officer or teacher is entitled to be a combination of civil service laws and their collective bargaining agreements. I do not exaggerate when I say it is in practice easier to put someone in prison than fire a police officer. So partly whether or not it would be a good idea would depend on the details of the proposed law, and how they would end up being interpreted by judges.
      - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        I'm not actually talking about public service unions here, just at-will employment. I personally think that lots of people in this conversation seem to believe that it's either at-will, or the public sector process when in fact the European experience demonstrates that there's a lot of space between these two opposite poles. My position is that given all this HR dance to prevent lawsuits, at-will doesn't really exist in professional jobs, so it might be worth ensuring that this is standard across all roles rather than just those where the fired employee might sue.
        bradleyjg 6y ago
        If I felt confident that the law as written and applied would end up putting in place more or less what I’ve seen in corporate America: - Do something egregious like steal or curse out a customer and you’ll be escorted off the premises - For poor performance you can get a write up and a meaningful chance to improve before being fired - You can be laid off just because your department / function / office isn’t needed anymore but they do something for you severance-wise I’d support a legal change.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago

You don't need unions for that, just legislation. In Ireland, you are essentially at-will for the first six months of any role, and after that you are "permanent". This essentially means that there needs to be a process to fire you. You need to supply at least one verbal warning on stated grounds (backed up as a written), then another one and then you can fire someone. It works reasonably well (not always, obviously) and it's super bizarre to me that you don't have that in the US. To be honest, when my previous employer wanted to move me to the US, this was one of my concerns, especially when you're dependent on the job for a visa. It just seems that its a bad trade-off for US people in general, and it's odd to me that it appears to be mostly unquestioned.

seibelj 6y ago
US companies fear lawsuits and firing employees includes a lot of data to back it up, from what I’ve observed. There are so many protected classes and reasons why firing is illegal, and people are so litigious, that months of documentation, warnings, improvement plan, etc. is required to fire someone with HR’s approval. And even then usually you give some severance to ensure lawsuit isn’t filed.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  So removing at-will employment wouldn't be a big deal then? Sounds like it might be a good idea.
  - bradleyjg 6y ago
    The paperwork that nervous HR makes American managers go through is an entirely different world then the process, say, a police officer or teacher is entitled to be a combination of civil service laws and their collective bargaining agreements. I do not exaggerate when I say it is in practice easier to put someone in prison than fire a police officer. So partly whether or not it would be a good idea would depend on the details of the proposed law, and how they would end up being interpreted by judges.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      I'm not actually talking about public service unions here, just at-will employment. I personally think that lots of people in this conversation seem to believe that it's either at-will, or the public sector process when in fact the European experience demonstrates that there's a lot of space between these two opposite poles. My position is that given all this HR dance to prevent lawsuits, at-will doesn't really exist in professional jobs, so it might be worth ensuring that this is standard across all roles rather than just those where the fired employee might sue.
      - bradleyjg 6y ago
        If I felt confident that the law as written and applied would end up putting in place more or less what I’ve seen in corporate America: - Do something egregious like steal or curse out a customer and you’ll be escorted off the premises - For poor performance you can get a write up and a meaningful chance to improve before being fired - You can be laid off just because your department / function / office isn’t needed anymore but they do something for you severance-wise I’d support a legal change.