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There are plenty of jobs in western Europe that will pay similar and won't force you to pee in a bottle or your pants. That's ignoring the whole healthcare sit

by tw04 6y ago

There are plenty of jobs in western Europe that will pay similar and won't force you to pee in a bottle or your pants. That's ignoring the whole healthcare situation... which I think you're leaving out of the equation. 30 seconds of searching indicates the average grocery store clerk in the UK makes 8.80GPB/hr. Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Industry=Grocery_Store_or_Supermarket/Hourly_Rate https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Industry=Grocery_Store_...

Grimm1 6y ago
Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr.
- tw04 6y ago
  >Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Sorry, are you seriously trying to claim an HSA is better than universal healthcare? >Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr. I'm not even sure where you're going with this. The original claim was that $15/hr was better than you can get in Europe. I pointed out the hourly wage actually isn't much better, and oh by the way, that wage doesn't include healthcare (which it doesn't). If you want healthcare coverage you have a monthly fee, plus your co-pay and deductible. Not even REMOTELY competitive to western Europe unless you're one of the lucky few who literally never gets in an accident and never gets sick (as well as your entire family).
  - Grimm1 6y ago
    I said it pretty clearly, it's not Amazon's fault that US healthcare is broken. Comparing EU to US for wages is thus largely fruitless. Fix our healthcare then your comparison might be useful. I was attempting to nicely dismiss your comparison.
    - avs733 6y ago
      It is not Amazon's fault but there is nothing legally preventing them from doing better. That is a choice by Amazon. They offer worse health insurance for more money than I have available to me.
  - throwawayboise 6y ago
    > Sorry, are you seriously trying to claim an HSA is better than universal healthcare? I think it can be. Depends on the details but an HSA comes with a high-deductible plan. This is normally ideal for young people, who are generally healthy and only need insurance for rare catastrophic illness or serious accidents. Normal, routine care (checkups, immunizations, etc.) can be budgeted and paid out of the HSA tax-free. I don't see why that stuff should be "free" for most people, any more than groceries or utilities or housing should be.
    - binaryblitz 6y ago
      There are actually tons of studies that show preventive healthcare reduces spend later on. For instance, if you pay for someone's routine checkup you might catch a heart issue or cancer early. Both insurance companies and the government (Medicaid/Medicare) would save money by paying for preventative care. Study by the NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5296930/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5296930/
      - zip1234 6y ago
        An HSA doesn't mean that you don't have preventative care. I have a high deductible plan plus HSA and there are things like annual checkups covered without going into deductible.
- beaconstudios 6y ago
  the UK healthcare system isn't so great either. It's good enough for a safety net (mostly... the wait times are horrendous for non-emergency work, and I know a guy whose collarbone pokes out at a right angle because his doctor wouldn't fix the break), but if you have a chronic condition that isn't one of the handful of really common ones that all doctors know about (like IBS) then you're mostly on your own unless you go private.
  - atdrummond 6y ago
    My experience with the NHS has been overall quite good, despite having an exceptionally severe presentation of Crohns and an aggressive leukemia. I’ve never been in a case where I have had to wait an exorbitant amount of time for either acute or routine care. This is across multiple cities and countries in the NHS. I likewise had some of the best American specialists in GI and oncology. I also ended up with six figures in medical debt despite having incredible insurance and a great job. I also experienced excruciating wait times at emergency rooms that dwarfed anything I’ve encountered at the A&E in the UK. The NHS obviously has massive scope for improvement and isn’t even the healthcare system I have felt the most secure in (that was the Swiss) but I am confident that the NHS is almost certainly better for the average Brit than the US medical system is for the average American.
    - beaconstudios 6y ago
      I couldn't speak to the US healthcare system, but from what I've heard it's probably much worse for usual medical needs. I'm glad you've had a better experience with the NHS than I have; my wife has a chronic condition and has had a pretty bad time in the NHS - she hates going to the doctors now from how many times she's been called a liar or accused of just trying to feed a painkiller addiction (despite not actually asking for painkillers). All because many doctors seemingly struggle to admit that they don't know what's wrong. I just bring this up because I think (and I could be wrong) that some people see socialised healthcare as a panacea but my experience with it is that it's actually very inconsistent and regularly lets people down (not just my wife, a good few others that I know as well). I still wouldn't choose the US system over the NHS though, not by a long shot.
- avs733 6y ago
  > Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. incorrect. they are OFFERED healthcare coverage. By this use of the word have, I have a private jet because I could buy one if I had the resources.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    They nearly universally take that offer (I don't even need to check to state that as a fact, the way US health care is everyone takes what they are offered). That is very different from an offer that nobody takes.
reaperducer 6y ago
the average grocery store clerk in the UK makes 8.80GPB/hr. Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. Is it fair to compare the average wage of a warehouse worker across the entirety of the U.K. with the starting wage of a warehouse worker in a single deeply impoverished town?
- lostlogin 6y ago
  Then compare the same job. The starting Amazon warehouse wage in the UK is £9.70, which is about US$13.70. https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/warehouse-operative https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/warehouse-operative
u678u 6y ago
You conveniently chose one of the wealthiest countries with the highest wages. Here is a more realistic look at monthly min wages across the region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_minimum_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
- Archio 6y ago
  >You conveniently chose one of the wealthiest countries Did you know that the United States is the wealthiest country in the world?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Did you know that the United States is the wealthiest country in the world? In aggregate, sure; its somewhere between 5th-8th by per capita GDP, which is the more relevant comparison, depending on source. But the UK isn’t even close to the US, or particularly near the top in Western Europe (which yas countries ahead of the US.)
    - Archio 6y ago
      Whether its 5th, 8th, or 1st; saying you can't compare US benefits to that of a "wealthy" European country is ridiculous. America IS a wealthy country.
  - VintageCool 6y ago
    It is worth pointing out that Alabama is one of the poorest states in the country (using GDP per capita), along with Mississippi, South Carolina, West Virginia, and Idaho.
spectramax 6y ago
How true is this "Pee in a bottle" thing? It sounds like a single anecdotal evidence widely used as a prop for arguments. Is there a systemic "pee in a bottle" problem at Amazon? I have a hard time believing this.
- cycrutchfield 6y ago
  You obviously missed the part where they hand each new employee a free bottle during orientation and train them on how to use it /s
chmod600 6y ago
I don't think it's terribly difficult to emigrate from the US to the EU. Aside from plane fare, what's holding someone in the US? And if it's just plane fare, there are probably a lot of places you can make it with a bus ticket that have better prospects without needing to go to Europe.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  > Aside from plane fare, what's holding someone in the US? Top of mind why someone would NOT want to work in "Europe": - lower salaries - much higher tax rate - stuff in general is more expensive (higher VAT + everything that's imported)
  - chmod600 6y ago
    I was referring to lower income people that a union would supposedly help.
- wiseleo 6y ago
  Leave US and owe US taxes on foreign income unless the citizenship is renounced. There are costs to renounce US citizenship as well. Therefore, it is not that simple.
ekianjo 6y ago
> Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. Healthcare in the UK is not as good as you may think it is. Unless you love waiting lines for life-threatening conditions.
- megablast 6y ago
  I lived in the Uk after loving from oz. never had an issue. Never even saw any lines. This was in London and Newcastle.

by tw04 6y ago

Grimm1 6y ago

Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr.

tw04 6y ago
>Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Sorry, are you seriously trying to claim an HSA is better than universal healthcare? >Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr. I'm not even sure where you're going with this. The original claim was that $15/hr was better than you can get in Europe. I pointed out the hourly wage actually isn't much better, and oh by the way, that wage doesn't include healthcare (which it doesn't). If you want healthcare coverage you have a monthly fee, plus your co-pay and deductible. Not even REMOTELY competitive to western Europe unless you're one of the lucky few who literally never gets in an accident and never gets sick (as well as your entire family).
- Grimm1 6y ago
  I said it pretty clearly, it's not Amazon's fault that US healthcare is broken. Comparing EU to US for wages is thus largely fruitless. Fix our healthcare then your comparison might be useful. I was attempting to nicely dismiss your comparison.
  - avs733 6y ago
    It is not Amazon's fault but there is nothing legally preventing them from doing better. That is a choice by Amazon. They offer worse health insurance for more money than I have available to me.
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  > Sorry, are you seriously trying to claim an HSA is better than universal healthcare? I think it can be. Depends on the details but an HSA comes with a high-deductible plan. This is normally ideal for young people, who are generally healthy and only need insurance for rare catastrophic illness or serious accidents. Normal, routine care (checkups, immunizations, etc.) can be budgeted and paid out of the HSA tax-free. I don't see why that stuff should be "free" for most people, any more than groceries or utilities or housing should be.
  - binaryblitz 6y ago
    There are actually tons of studies that show preventive healthcare reduces spend later on. For instance, if you pay for someone's routine checkup you might catch a heart issue or cancer early. Both insurance companies and the government (Medicaid/Medicare) would save money by paying for preventative care. Study by the NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5296930/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5296930/
    - zip1234 6y ago
      An HSA doesn't mean that you don't have preventative care. I have a high deductible plan plus HSA and there are things like annual checkups covered without going into deductible.
beaconstudios 6y ago
the UK healthcare system isn't so great either. It's good enough for a safety net (mostly... the wait times are horrendous for non-emergency work, and I know a guy whose collarbone pokes out at a right angle because his doctor wouldn't fix the break), but if you have a chronic condition that isn't one of the handful of really common ones that all doctors know about (like IBS) then you're mostly on your own unless you go private.
- atdrummond 6y ago
  My experience with the NHS has been overall quite good, despite having an exceptionally severe presentation of Crohns and an aggressive leukemia. I’ve never been in a case where I have had to wait an exorbitant amount of time for either acute or routine care. This is across multiple cities and countries in the NHS. I likewise had some of the best American specialists in GI and oncology. I also ended up with six figures in medical debt despite having incredible insurance and a great job. I also experienced excruciating wait times at emergency rooms that dwarfed anything I’ve encountered at the A&E in the UK. The NHS obviously has massive scope for improvement and isn’t even the healthcare system I have felt the most secure in (that was the Swiss) but I am confident that the NHS is almost certainly better for the average Brit than the US medical system is for the average American.
  - beaconstudios 6y ago
    I couldn't speak to the US healthcare system, but from what I've heard it's probably much worse for usual medical needs. I'm glad you've had a better experience with the NHS than I have; my wife has a chronic condition and has had a pretty bad time in the NHS - she hates going to the doctors now from how many times she's been called a liar or accused of just trying to feed a painkiller addiction (despite not actually asking for painkillers). All because many doctors seemingly struggle to admit that they don't know what's wrong. I just bring this up because I think (and I could be wrong) that some people see socialised healthcare as a panacea but my experience with it is that it's actually very inconsistent and regularly lets people down (not just my wife, a good few others that I know as well). I still wouldn't choose the US system over the NHS though, not by a long shot.
avs733 6y ago
> Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. incorrect. they are OFFERED healthcare coverage. By this use of the word have, I have a private jet because I could buy one if I had the resources.
- bluGill 6y ago
  They nearly universally take that offer (I don't even need to check to state that as a fact, the way US health care is everyone takes what they are offered). That is very different from an offer that nobody takes.

reaperducer 6y ago

the average grocery store clerk in the UK makes 8.80GPB/hr. Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. Is it fair to compare the average wage of a warehouse worker across the entirety of the U.K. with the starting wage of a warehouse worker in a single deeply impoverished town?

lostlogin 6y ago
Then compare the same job. The starting Amazon warehouse wage in the UK is £9.70, which is about US$13.70. https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/warehouse-operative https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/warehouse-operative

u678u 6y ago

You conveniently chose one of the wealthiest countries with the highest wages. Here is a more realistic look at monthly min wages across the region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_minimum_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...

Archio 6y ago
>You conveniently chose one of the wealthiest countries Did you know that the United States is the wealthiest country in the world?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Did you know that the United States is the wealthiest country in the world? In aggregate, sure; its somewhere between 5th-8th by per capita GDP, which is the more relevant comparison, depending on source. But the UK isn’t even close to the US, or particularly near the top in Western Europe (which yas countries ahead of the US.)
  - Archio 6y ago
    Whether its 5th, 8th, or 1st; saying you can't compare US benefits to that of a "wealthy" European country is ridiculous. America IS a wealthy country.
- VintageCool 6y ago
  It is worth pointing out that Alabama is one of the poorest states in the country (using GDP per capita), along with Mississippi, South Carolina, West Virginia, and Idaho.

spectramax 6y ago

How true is this "Pee in a bottle" thing? It sounds like a single anecdotal evidence widely used as a prop for arguments. Is there a systemic "pee in a bottle" problem at Amazon? I have a hard time believing this.

cycrutchfield 6y ago
You obviously missed the part where they hand each new employee a free bottle during orientation and train them on how to use it /s

chmod600 6y ago

I don't think it's terribly difficult to emigrate from the US to the EU. Aside from plane fare, what's holding someone in the US? And if it's just plane fare, there are probably a lot of places you can make it with a bus ticket that have better prospects without needing to go to Europe.

ekianjo 6y ago
> Aside from plane fare, what's holding someone in the US? Top of mind why someone would NOT want to work in "Europe": - lower salaries - much higher tax rate - stuff in general is more expensive (higher VAT + everything that's imported)
- chmod600 6y ago
  I was referring to lower income people that a union would supposedly help.
wiseleo 6y ago
Leave US and owe US taxes on foreign income unless the citizenship is renounced. There are costs to renounce US citizenship as well. Therefore, it is not that simple.

ekianjo 6y ago

> Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. Healthcare in the UK is not as good as you may think it is. Unless you love waiting lines for life-threatening conditions.

megablast 6y ago
I lived in the Uk after loving from oz. never had an issue. Never even saw any lines. This was in London and Newcastle.