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Coq searches for alternative name
- maweki 6y ago> This [...] has already led to some women [...] getting harassed when they said they were working on Coq. What's wrong with people?
- potiuper 6y agoIf someone is working on a project, then the expectation is that the name of that project can be correctly pronounced?
- maweki 6y agoThey pronounce it correctly and its pronounciation is the same as "cock" (or close enough for people to understand it so). And that's the problem. Edit: Literally the first two sentences: > The name Coq comes from the French word for rooster, CoC (the Calculus of Constructions) and Thierry Coquand, one of the initial authors of Coq. But it is also close to the word "cock" which has a slang meaning that some English speakers consider offensive (it also means a male bird or the firing lever in a gun).
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- jgwil2 6y agoThe correct pronunciation is closer to 'coke', as noted in the article. EDIT: the article is somewhat ambiguous on the subject, and I guess it's a bit subjective, but to me 'coke' sounds much closer to the French than the American 'cahck' at least.
- luckylion 6y agoI'm surprised as well, I would've intuitively leaned towards pronouncing it more like "cog" than "cock". Like in Coq au Vin, but I guess that cannot be ordered in the US, gotta go for rooster in wine (or freedom rooster?) to make sure nobody gets upset when their mind's first interpretation of a sound is "penis".
- toxik 6y agoI’m pretty sure the vowel sounds the same in cog and cock in US English.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Like in Coq au Vin Even assuming you mean “like that is pronounced in English”, its worth noting that there are at least three different first (or only, as some don’t provide more than one) pronunciations of the “Coq” in “Coq au Vin” in thr half-dozen English dictionaries I’ve just checked.)
- luckylion 6y agoThanks, I wasn't aware that they're slaughtering not only the bird but also the pronunciation! Is it one of those things where not being exposed to French at all makes one unable to produce both a hard k-sound as in "ck" and a softer k-sound that is somewhere between g and k, but definitely closer to "cog" than to "cock"?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- boobsbr 6y agoWhere I am ATM, it's pronounced 'cock'.
- dgellow 6y agoThe following sound the same to me: - in French, word coq - in English, word cock In English the "o" from "coke" sounds more like the way the letter "o" is pronounced in the alphabet, which is slightly different from the "o" in "cock".
- blackshaw 6y agoThe "o" in "coke" is what linguists call a diphthong: two vowel sounds pronounced in quick succession. Pronounce it slowly and notice how your tongue moves as you say it. In IPA it's written /oʊ/, it's a combination of the vowels /o/ and /ʊ/. The "o" in "cock" is a single vowel that's pronounced quite differently in British vs. American English. The French "o" isn't like any of these; I believe in the case of "coq" it's pronounced /o/, i.e. the first half of the English /oʊ/. Your tongue shouldn't move while you say it. Pronouncing this single vowel like the English /oʊ/ is a very common mistake that English speakers make in French (or Spanish, Portuguese etc.) - it's a distinctively English sound that gives you away as a native English speaker.
- dgellow 6y agoJust curious, did you learn the IPA in school? I always find it surprising how familiar people online seem to be with the system, I personally have no idea how to read those notations. Edit: I found out there is a chart with sound on the IPA website[0]! [0]: https://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa-chart-with-sounds/ https://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/ipa-sounds/ipa...
- blackshaw 6y agoNope, wasn't covered in school at all. I taught myself from Wikipedia, it's a slow process but you don't need to learn it all at once.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> The French "o" isn't like any of these; I believe in the case of "coq" it's pronounced /o/ The sources I find mostly say /ɔ/, which is one step more open than /o/
- Leherenn 6y agoIt's ambiguous because it's going to depends on your accent both in French and English.
- dgellow 6y agoI don't think it's that ambiguous, at least not in French. Even if you are more familiar with a local variation of the language or have an accent (that's my case, my native language is technically Swiss-French, and we have strong local accents) you are still aware of the "standard French" pronunciation. I face this with German too, people might speak a dialect or have a local accent but are also familiar with Hochdeutsch. English doesn't have a standard body as far as I know, and pronunciation vary a lot between different countries, so that may be different.
- krageon 6y ago> English doesn't have a standard body It'd be wherever it wouldn't be a dialect, which to my mind is obviously british english. Other variations are regional dialects born of distance and time.
- jgwil2 6y agoEvery variety of a language is a dialect; what OP means is that there is no governing body determining what constitutes "standard" English, like the Académie française. Rather, there is an informal standard used by the media and elites in every English-speaking country, making it a pluricentric language[0]. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluricentric_language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluricentric_language
- Leherenn 6y ago> you are still aware of the "standard French" pronunciation. Not that well, at least for me, I think I know most cases where it changes from my local accent, but I would struggle to emit the "correct" sound. It wasn't that long ago that I learnt that "é, ais, er, et, ez" were not supposed to be pronounced the same, and I cannot tell how each one is supposed to be pronounced. I would say people from Switzerland are probably more aware of the difference, because it is acknowledged that it is slightly different, whereas I have never heard anyone tell me that I wasn't learning "proper/standard" French and that it's "supposed" to be pronounced differently.
- jvilk 6y agoWhat do you mean? Nearly every native English speaker who works with Coq pronounces it "cock" (from experience at POPL, PLDI, and other PL conferences). Personally, I'm very happy that they are changing the name.
- bryanrasmussen 6y agoI pronounce it sort of like cog but with a sort of w sound at the end - like the gw sound you get in quiet.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- necovek 6y ago> This similarity has already led to some women turning away from Coq and others getting harassed when they said they were working on Coq. Full quote which you managed to misrepresent by "helpfully" cutting text out. So, women were turned away, and others were harassed. So I guess that's exactly what's wrong with people: they will frequently misunderstand things and then spread those misunderstandings.
- carmen_sandiego 6y agoWomen weren't turned away, they did the turning away. I don't see what was misrepresented. The person you're chastising seems to have edited the quote to ensure we know they're replying to one specific part of it. After all, if they had left the part about women turning away, it might seem like they were asking "what's wrong" with the women.
- torgard 6y agoI read that as some women turned away, and other women were harassed.
- necovek 6y agoThat's certainly a reasonable understanding, though I can't imagine there not being any men who've been harassed too (even by simple mockery), which is why I read it as if there were women who did not even use it because of the name, and a separate group of others (which includes women too) who still used it, but were being harassed (eg. when they spoke about it). I think that makes a big difference in the interpretation, not that it should make a big difference in action taken.
- JacksonGariety 6y agoHalf of all people do not get jokes.
- necovek 6y agoI did consider an option of it being a joke, but thenthe discussion continues as if it was a real quote, so it's still worth correcting for the benefit of those who are now arguing the quote instead of the article.
- aequitas 6y agoAnd half of all people don't understand that a bad joke isn't funny, especially when you hear it every time, over and over.
- pc_enforcer 6y ago"Getting harassed" has lost all its meaning in online conversations. If a 16 year old giggles when hearing the word the first time, that's "harassment" and s/he is a sexist pig who should be deported to the nearest Gulag.
- torgard 6y agoWow what a bold take, brave
- Grustaf 6y agoI'm very curious about the form of this harassment. It's hard to imagine. Maybe if you had extremely immature colleagues, but even then, "harassed"? - Hey, what are you up to? - Working in Coq - Hu-hu you said "cock" Presumably any adult would be aware that the name is "funny" and would be careful when replying and say something like "working on formal proofs", "programming" or "maths" instead.
- happy_path 6y agoIt seems to me that the harassers were just searching for an excuse to harass those women.
- TedShiller 6y agoWhy?
- maweki 6y agoOne would suggest reading at least the first paragraph.
- TedShiller 6y agoTo me the word git is offensive. So can we rename git?
- maweki 6y agoI know you argue in bad faith, but that issue has indeed been addressed since at least 2012 and the general consensus is, that the name is not a problem. In terms of Coq, it's the developers addressing the issue, not even a third person. That in itself should be enough to not dismiss it outright.
- TedShiller 6y agoI see, but if git is not a problem then Coq is also not a problem.
- maweki 6y agoThat's unsubstantiated, as we have at least second-hand evidence of people getting harassed over using the name Coq, while we don't have evidence for something similar for git. And if you were really affected by the word git, you would understand the issue of the Coq developers. Since you feigned ignorance in your first response, we can conclude, you're just arguing in bad faith. You should really start to regard other people's feelings as something not necessary to be hurt, if it could easily be avoided.
- Andugal 6y agoWhile not intended in that way, I found it really funny.
- bmh 6y agoScroll to the very bottom of the page for the best suggested replacement!
- jgwil2 6y ago> Hint: in French it is better to avoid spelling out the letter 'Q'. For those who are wondering, 'Q' in French is pronounced the same as the word 'cul,' meaning 'ass.'
- Clewza313 6y agoA famous riff on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.H.O.O.Q https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.H.O.O.Q.
- tasogare 6y agoYes and then co-Q would be pronounced "koky" (IPA) which means cuck. That’s not a big improvement... My favorite proposal is Le Coq Formel even if it’s a bit long. The simple Le Coq feels too meme-y.
- dgellow 6y agoIn French SQL is generally spelled out loud without it being an issue. I don't really see why that wouldn't work for coq, though I understand if they prefer to have an actual word, "see-oh-queue" is a bit ugly.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- luma 6y agoHPE found themselves in a similar position several years back with their ProLiant line of x86 servers. Each "generation" of those systems used to be referred to as "g4" or "g5", then "g6", etc. When time came for the 8th generation systems, all the nomenclature suddenly shifted to "gen8" instead of "g8" without much explanation offered. Come to find out, "g8" is offensive slang for "cock" in Chinese. China being a huge market, HPE thought it better to change the entire naming scheme of their server line rather than deal with any potential blowback from naming their systems "g8".
- severak_cz 6y agoThis is funny, because G8 is commonly used abbreviation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_Eight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_Eight
- foota 6y agoI'm surprised they didn't just skip to g9 or use a new naming scheme.
- luma 6y agogen8 (instead of g8) is the new naming scheme! We're on gen10 now, with gen11 right around the corner.
- toxik 6y agoFor public information, G8 is pronounced gee-baa in Chinese
- Symbiote 6y agoWhy not just pronounce it differently in English? Maybe "co-que". Java is already pronounced "djava" in English, and "yava"/"iava" in several other European languages. I assume the same for C++, C#, Awk, Python etc.
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoBecause 99% of the time, a project's name is not spoken out loud - it's all on the internet. I mean I'm glad I don't have to speak "Cee-plus-plus" out loud much.
- crtc 6y agoIn German C# is pronounced "C Lattenzaun" or "C Schweinegatter", which is quite a mouthful.
- louthy 6y ago> Why not just pronounce it differently in English I think because most people won't. They'll go for the most obvious pronunciation. Especially as there's a brand called Le Coq Sportif, which has a pretty well known pronunciation. First exposure to names of languages, libraries, etc. is often written on a screen - and so it could well be years before anyone actually speaks the word, but they have the pronunciation in their head, and that tends to stick.
- threatofrain 6y agoBig discussion today. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26738980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26738980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26747129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26747129
- neolog 6y ago> "rooster" is also slang for "penis" What dialect has "rooster" as slang for penis?
- torgard 6y agoRoqc is a fantastic name, hope they go with that.
- hutrdvnj 6y agoI agree, it's by far the best name from their suggestions.
- sriku 6y ago<tongue-in-cheek>In a parallel effort, the airline industry is modifying its manuals and training to not refer to the pilot bay as "cockpit".</tongue-in-cheek>
- qaq 6y agoDick?
- BlasDeLezo 6y agoQunt
- qaq 6y agoWould be good name for fintech analytics package
- llaolleh 6y agoThey should keep it instead of trying to avoid offending people. People take things too seriously. When else are you going to have fun saying, I'm working on the CoQ have an awkward stare, and then laugh about it? We already have CoC for Vim, and I see no problem with that.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- traspler 6y agoI think it's perfectly fine for a project to have a discussion about what they are calling themselves and what the consequences of that are. I really like the introduction of the linked wiki and I think it leaves it open to anyone to argue their point, from "leave it, it's funny" to "I feel offended and so should you". I don't think this discussion has reached the point (yet) where it's simply about avoiding offence or getting bullied into a decision.
- Sebb767 6y ago> People take things too seriously Depends on your viewpoint. If you have a small plugin or personal project like CoC, without any ambitions to reach many people, such a joke is fine in my book. But in this case, it seems to hinder the adoption and growth of the language, so it makes a lot of sense to switch to a less offensive name. Especially since the language seems to aim to get more widespread usage.
- louthy 6y agoI think this is laudable. I don't use the language, but I always found its obvious pronunciation a bit strong. I've had discussions of theorem provers with engineers I know, and when Coq is mentioned it always ends up with either some awkward silence or sniggers (US: snickers) - which is pathetic, but it's also real. As a man, I hadn't thought of the potential problems for women in this sphere (quelle surprise); that is absolutely the strongest argument for change. We should all strive to be inclusive and it seems the leaders in the Coq community are taking that seriously, and should be applauded. My two penneth worth on the variants that still include Coq in the name (like 'Le Coq', etc.) is that it'll just get shortened down to Coq in real-world use. English tends to shorten terms to the minimum word or phrase that still conveys meaning.
- majewsky 6y ago> Languages tend to shorten terms to the minimum word or phrase that still conveys meaning. FTFY It's just particularly noticable with English because the more people speak a language, the more people work on trimming out the fat (consciously or unconsciously).
- Grustaf 6y ago> As a man, I hadn't thought of the potential problems for women in this sphere (quelle surprise); that is absolutely the strongest argument for change. Because women are more prudish than men? Or because the joke is about the male member? So if it was called "Qunt", it would be men that were clamouring for a name change?
- toxik 6y agoCall it Coquand and say Coq is an abbreviation gives you exactly the right amount of plausible deniability. I like it!
- gbrown_ 6y agoThe juvenility of people astounds me. If there are people in the community purposely ignorant of the French entomology and using the similarity to "cock" to troll or harass others does the project changing it's name even help? Those people are still present. Perhaps cutting off such an avenue does reduce toxicity but it feels like catering to the lowest common denominator. Is it too much to expect basic decency these days? Not to mention the English normative focus. Have there been other large projects that felt the need to change their name because of connotations in languages other than English?
- numlock86 6y agoWhat's with this weird trend since 2016'ish (?) that everyone is getting offended by everything? Surely the world has enough other problems right now.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> What's with this weird trend since 2016'ish (?) that everyone is getting offended by everything? Surely the world has enough other problems right now The only thing new is the degree of performative offense by reactionary elites at people “getting offended” as a response to every complaint of substantive patterns of harm (not mere offense) as a distraction from actual problems.
- mro_name 6y ago> the world has enough other problems maybe that's the issue – the obvious problems seem unsurmountable, so let's do just about anything else. Parkinsons law on bikeshedding/triviality: the least relevant topic on the agenda gets the most attention.
- crtc 6y agoIt's more people having a platform to speak out about how they feel.
- Volundr 6y agoThis isn't new. Brands frequently have different names in different countries due to connotations. Characters in books and films get renamed when they cross borders. Cloact was renamed to Reagent due to people associating it with cloaca. I seem to remember another project that was renamed due to it's connotations in Spanish but I can't find it now. While it was never renamed, GIMPs name has drawn objectors since well before 2016. The only reason this is a big deal instead of routine like those is the current backlash against "PC culture" or "SJW"s.
- mseepgood 6y agoIf "Coq" is a rooster, why not call it "Hen" or "Chick"? That might encourage more women to contribute.
- HelloNurse 6y agoI don't think the Coq developers are inclined to chicken out, and the virility of a theorem prover shouldn't be underestimated. More concretely, there would be some confusion with the popular Chicken Scheme compiler.
- crtc 6y ago> there would be some confusion with the popular Chicken Scheme compiler. Or Agda (the hen): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPY42kkRADc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPY42kkRADc
- argvargc 6y agoIf there was a project called "fuq", and people were being harassed or finding it difficult to discuss, I think anyone could understand that this was an issue. Given this, "Coq" is clearly a fuqing problematic name, and unless it's absolutely intended to have the double meaning, it should probably be changed somehow. A clear alternate pronounciation of "coke" (with optional circumflex), would seem easiest to implement. At least, try it for a while and see if it works?
- pelario 6y agoTo me it seems as misdirected solution: i) If people is being harassed because of the name of their workplace, then the problem is the harasser. Changing the name of the workplace is a bit like victim shaming, in the sense that the real problem is the harasser. ii) If people have difficulties talking about their workplace name, then I think it's people's problem.
- Sebb767 6y ago> Changing the name of the workplace is a bit like victim shaming, in the sense that the real problem is the harasser. Yes, but the connotation is arguably quite NSFW. If it would be named penis directly, it should not make a difference either, but it does. Throwing in "we should use cock!" in a meeting will get you glances at first and surely some more afterwards, even if you clarify. Ask the companies named ISIS (there are quite a few) how the name worked out for them; same thing here. > If people have difficulties talking about their workplace name, then I think it's people's problem. Yes, but it is then, in turn, your problem, as you loose out on quite a few people - either because they don't want the trouble with the name or because it simply deters them. Marketing is extremely important.
- argvargc 6y agoSo you'd be happy announcing to a room of strangers that you're working for a company called "fuq"? Or "diqhed"? Or how about "faqqot"? And how it plays out every single time? In all things, there are limits - and "coq", as it is presently pronounced, is obviously breaching those limits, or the problem wouldn't be there.
- happy_path 6y agoI'm no French nor English native speaker (I speak a bit of both, though) and don't understand that discussion for a name change. This reminds me of the issue with the word "negro" (Spanish for black) in some schools of the USA. It seems some people couldn't understand that that word was there for centuries before the Atlantic Slave Trade. Are we going to adapt every language to avoid negative connotations in English (or the common tongue of our era)? If you are an English speaker you should be used to pronounciation exceptions, being an almost no-rule pronunciation language. Pronounce it like you want ("coqi", "le coq" or whatever you want) but changing the name for all speakers (even the non-English ones)? That's a big no-no for me.
- Grustaf 6y agoYou will never understand these discussions if you take them at face value. There is almost always something else involved. Misdirection away from actual issues, people with too much time on their hands, people with an axe to grind or some other agenda.
- bryanrasmussen 6y agoin Denmark the word pik has the same meaning, so when I was working in a ruby shop almost 10 years ago would have to listen to two senior developers making pik jokes every now and then. They weren't really very funny, but I guess they were amused.
- pc_enforcer 6y agoWhy is it our problem that Americans sexualize any animal in sight? "cock" means "male bird" in British English. Perhaps Americans should just stop using Coq; anything of value in that area is developed in Europe anyway. When the product is finished, Americans try to govern or market it.
- Sebb767 6y agoIf you think we on the other side of the pond a more mature, you could suggest "willy" as a new name ;)
- hgartner 6y agoGood idea, there already is a children's movie "Free Willy", so the name should be safe. ;) Among the GitHub suggestions there is "peep": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peep_show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peep_show But "peeps" seems to be safe in our great moral beacon, the USSA!
- ilammy 6y agoRemember when “Fedora × Raspberry Pi” was blessed “Pidora”, to much amusement of their Russian-speaking userbase? There were also calls for renaming, but apparently they kept the name.
- Sebb767 6y agoWhat's the problem with Pidora in Russian?
- ilammy 6y agoEverybody will read it as «пидора» which is highly obscene swearword for [a certain F word HN doesn't allow to utter]. You can't even write that with a straight face, let alone speak it out loud, definitely banned for use in mass-media in transliterated/vocal form. But not many on the internet were offended by the name or anything. Quite the contrary, people thought it's a funny name and makes good marketing.
- noodlesUK 6y agoI’m sure there are plenty of things that are fine in English that sound mildly (or worse) offensive in other languages. Should we really be imposing on other people?
- Volundr 6y agoA project I was involved with (Reagent) changed it's name from Cloact because it made people think of cloaca. Companies very commonly change brand and product names when selling in different countries due to connotations arising from the name in the native tongue. Similarly books and movies will rename characters for the same purpose. I guess the question is, why shouldn't the Coq project think about this kind of thing?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- dgellow 6y agoJust a funny note: we have the exact opposite issue in French with the English word "bit", which sounds exactly like the French word "bite", a literal translation of the word "cock". So I guess that goes both ways :)
- jerome-jh 6y agoReminds me of an embarrassing conversation at work in front of female non technical colleagues, about 20 years ago. Anyway France alone cannot make the world move away from "bit", whereas the US and the anglophone world supposedly have the power the change the name of something french people invented :) Let's see the bright side of this as a consequence of the wide adoption of Coq and the cause of an even wider adoption.
- icha 6y agoShould we scrap all foreign names altogether to make our dearest English speakers as comfortable as possible? Talk about diversity.
- twpalace 6y agoI suggest renaming it to "woq", pronounced "woke".
- ghthor 6y agoThis is my favorite suggestion thus far.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mike_k 6y agoSeems now we need a perfectly PC-correct newspeak. That will a be a subset of all words in all languages that excludes any words that _could_ sound like a different word in a different language and then filtering it further to exclude anything even remotely dubious.
- mro_name 6y agoTold you so. Take UUIDs. Won't have happened.
- dgellow 6y agoJust an idea, but would it be possible to say "coqlang", the say way we say golang for Go? Or does that still sound offensive? That may solve a part of the problem without a complete renaming.
- mseepgood 6y ago> the say way we say golang for Go? Nobody says "golang" in speech, that would sound idiotic. It's a tag for search engines, not for speaking.
- Grustaf 6y agoThis is extra silly since the non-slang meaning of "cock" in English is more or less the same as "coq". Why not just change the logo to a rooster that doesn't look like a dick?
- pmkiwi 6y agoProuvé Demontré Verifié to reflect its French roots :)
- CodeGlitch 6y agoGIMP should do the same thing. I do honestly think it's reduced its adoption.
- fortran77 6y agoHow about "Rooster?" (It's in their list.) I also like the "Rococo" idea. I'm pretty sure the people who named Coq knew exactly what they were doing. Feigning surprise at how it's interpreted is disingenuous.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]