6 ms·

Unions depress wages for top performers, and protect incompetent staff. I don't know about you, but I don't particularly want to pay dues to a union that will g

by 0xy 6y ago

Unions depress wages for top performers, and protect incompetent staff. I don't know about you, but I don't particularly want to pay dues to a union that will go to bat for incompetent coworkers dragging us all down. Teachers unions go further than protecting incompetent staff and actually protect sexual predators [1] [2], just to give you an idea of the morality of the typical union. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443437504577547313612049308 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443437504577547... [2] https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/sex-predators-remain-nyc-schools-group-article-1.1380535 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/sex-predators...

mhh__ 6y ago
You aren't obligated to join a union (certainly not in tech at least)
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Almost all unions rapidly try to transition employers into a union shop. Pretty quickly language starts to arrive about 'freeloaders' and 'scabs'. Simply put, I don't trust you when you say "you aren't obligated".
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
femiagbabiaka 6y ago
It’s amusing how quickly and often someone can emerge with FUD from the woodwork, ready to create a hellthread.
- koube 6y ago
  Hoping to avoid wading into the specifics of this issue, but have you considered that unions are unpopular among software engineers? I am the most pro-union person I know personally, and I am not pro-union.
  - codetrotter 6y ago
    As a European living in Europe I am more of the impression that anti-union sentiments are mainly widespread in the USA. But then again I haven’t really discussed unionization with anyone either. I just see more negativity towards it in public from Americans than from others.
    - AdrianB1 6y ago
      In East Europe anti-union feelings are strong among the people that lived under the communist regimes (~ 45 years or older). Unions were widespread at that time and the negatives were very visible, hard to forget the huge negative influence they had in the period of 1990-2000 when the transition of these countries was slowed down or sabotaged by unions.
      - iudqnolq 6y ago
        I don't think that's blanket true. What about Solidarnosc?
        AdrianB1 6y ago
        It was well regarded at some point, but the current membership numbers (4% of what it was at peak) is showing that the post-1990 evolution was not great. Providing support for closing stores on Sunday is not the purpose of a worker union.
      - regextegrity 6y ago
        Source?
        AdrianB1 6y ago
        Really everyone that I know in that age range. I am living in Eastern Europe and I worked in several countries in the region.
  - femiagbabiaka 6y ago
mavelikara 6y ago
> Unions depress wages for top performers, and protect incompetent staff. Entertainers and sports professionals have unions which do not seem have this problem.
- 0xy 6y ago
  The best police officer and the best teacher in the entire United States are paid identically to the worst, most abusive ones. If you support police unions for example, you're inherently supporting the notion that a police officer who is courteous and cares about the community should be paid identically to the Chauvins of the force.
  - paxys 6y ago
    Tech companies don't rely on public sector pay scales. Does LeBron James get paid the same as Darius Garland? Turns out he is free to negotiate his own contract, despite being part of a strong union. Imagine that.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      Interestingly, that's not the kind of union that the OP has (disregarding the fact that LeBron James is underpaid because of union lobbying). So hypotheticals aren't useful. No one is really proposing any tech workers union that is like the one NBA players are in. All proposals are the other kind. And none of them encode equal rights for immigrants in their bylaws.
    - ipaddr 6y ago
      The way salary works in the nba is the top players like LeBron can only get paid a % of the salary cap. So half of the teams have a star or two like LeBron making 25-30% of the cap. So the best players all get paided the same. Older players have a min, teams have a cap. Based on skill/age players slot into pay ranges that match their output. These are the maximums for 2021 28,649,250 (players with less than 6 years experience) $40,108,95 (players with 10 years plus) The nba was a bad example.
  - deleted 6y ago
claaams 6y ago
I could also post about how police unions protect abusers as well. I was thinking more about guaranteeing rights for Amazon warehouse workers and people like the woman in the article working in datacenters where basic expectations like being able to go and get water aren't going to jeopardize your job. The people who are FTEs at these companies dont need unions. It's the people working for contractors for these companies so they can hide a bunch of ugly practices and cost cutting who need it.
- 0xy 6y ago
  You wrongly assumed that I think police unions are fine. Most unions end up proliferating toxic practices.
- worik 6y ago
  Every worker needs a union, professionals need associations. There are huge power imbalances at work
cosmotic 6y ago
Your only citations against unions is the same situation reported by two news agencies about a union that is legally obligated to defend their members?
wnevets 6y ago
> Unions depress wages for top performers Someone better let Lebron James know!
- penguinbroker 6y ago
  bit of an ironic example, lebron is considered one of the most undervalued athletes by contract value. mostly due to salary cap and wage scale restrictions in the nba, things the nba players union agreed to. also see messi's contract for an example of what these athletes are worth in an open market: https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/lionel-messi-barcelona-contract-details-674-million-earnings-leaked-by-spanish-paper-in-bombshell-report/ https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/lionel-messi-barcelona... obviously soccer and basketball aren't apples to apples. but look around the nba and you see many salaries across the top of the scale that suggest the top performers are vastly underpaid. https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-james-makes-less-than-other-sports-mega-stars-chart-2020-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-james-makes-less-than...
  - gowld 6y ago
    1. Would LeBron generate less money for his team/league the gap between him and the next best is slightly less? 2. Does the NBA give LeBron a platform to make 2x more than his NBA salary in endorsements? (Yes.)
    - penguinbroker 6y ago
      don't understand the first question as for the second point, not sure what this has to do with the original comment/point, specifically the fact that lebron is proof against the idea that "Unions depress wages for top performers". obviously a lot of complex dynamics here, and one could argue that the nba players union has helped make the nba more successful and all the money that came with that. just pointing out that using lebron as a counterargument to the original comment about wages (ie his nba salary) is a bit ironic.
  - wnevets 6y ago
    > obviously soccer and basketball aren't apples to apples. Which is why your comparison messi isn't very good. In fact if you read past the headline, your link explains why.
mushbino 6y ago
If you join a union you're protecting child molesters? I think you flew a little too close to the sun with this FUD. Dial it back a bit so it sounds a little more sincere next time.
- david38 6y ago
  Very true. You can say if you work for a rich person, you are protecting / enriching child molesters as well. Many wealthy business owners have been convicted of all kinds of illegal activities, including child molestation. What a crap straw man argument.
bsder 6y ago
1) Teachers unions protect everyone Somehow people who talk about "child predators" always ignore the fact that a bunch of people who get falsely charged also get protected. That's REALLY important. My anecdata knows far more teachers who were falsely accused than actual child predators (ratio: 12 to 1). A single teacher can't possibly corral the amount money required for a defense against a school board funded lawyer. 2) Almost all of the "incompetent" teachers left in place are there because the school adminstration won't file the paperwork. School administrators are politicians. They are always looking for their next job. The one thing administrators hate is bad press because it will dog them when they jump jobs. Actually firing a teacher is fraught with opportunities for bad press. No matter how distasteful the teacher's behavior--somebody in the community will likely be on their side. If those people are vocal, firing that teacher dooms your political career--probably forever thanks to Google. Consequently, administrators prefer to simply shunt bad teachers aside rather than risk their career. So, put the blame for incompetent/horrible teachers where it belongs--square on the shoulders of the school administrators who have made a political calculation and refuse to fire people properly.
MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
Yeah my local school convicted a teacher after he was caught with a minor and his semen on her after she did a rape kit. Dude had been a well known and respected teacher for over 20 years. Unions have shot themselves in the foot. They only benefit the workers and heavily fuck over customers more than they do companies. Unions were there to improve conditions and give fair wages. Not protect, like you said, incompetent workers. But it turned into that.
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological flamewars. They're too repetitive to be on topic here. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26733237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26733237.

by 0xy 6y ago

mhh__ 6y ago

You aren't obligated to join a union (certainly not in tech at least)

renewiltord 6y ago
Almost all unions rapidly try to transition employers into a union shop. Pretty quickly language starts to arrive about 'freeloaders' and 'scabs'. Simply put, I don't trust you when you say "you aren't obligated".

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

femiagbabiaka 6y ago

It’s amusing how quickly and often someone can emerge with FUD from the woodwork, ready to create a hellthread.

koube 6y ago
Hoping to avoid wading into the specifics of this issue, but have you considered that unions are unpopular among software engineers? I am the most pro-union person I know personally, and I am not pro-union.
- codetrotter 6y ago
  As a European living in Europe I am more of the impression that anti-union sentiments are mainly widespread in the USA. But then again I haven’t really discussed unionization with anyone either. I just see more negativity towards it in public from Americans than from others.
  - AdrianB1 6y ago
    In East Europe anti-union feelings are strong among the people that lived under the communist regimes (~ 45 years or older). Unions were widespread at that time and the negatives were very visible, hard to forget the huge negative influence they had in the period of 1990-2000 when the transition of these countries was slowed down or sabotaged by unions.
    - iudqnolq 6y ago
      I don't think that's blanket true. What about Solidarnosc?
      - AdrianB1 6y ago
        It was well regarded at some point, but the current membership numbers (4% of what it was at peak) is showing that the post-1990 evolution was not great. Providing support for closing stores on Sunday is not the purpose of a worker union.
    - regextegrity 6y ago
      Source?
      - AdrianB1 6y ago
        Really everyone that I know in that age range. I am living in Eastern Europe and I worked in several countries in the region.
- femiagbabiaka 6y ago

mavelikara 6y ago

> Unions depress wages for top performers, and protect incompetent staff. Entertainers and sports professionals have unions which do not seem have this problem.

0xy 6y ago
The best police officer and the best teacher in the entire United States are paid identically to the worst, most abusive ones. If you support police unions for example, you're inherently supporting the notion that a police officer who is courteous and cares about the community should be paid identically to the Chauvins of the force.
- paxys 6y ago
  Tech companies don't rely on public sector pay scales. Does LeBron James get paid the same as Darius Garland? Turns out he is free to negotiate his own contract, despite being part of a strong union. Imagine that.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Interestingly, that's not the kind of union that the OP has (disregarding the fact that LeBron James is underpaid because of union lobbying). So hypotheticals aren't useful. No one is really proposing any tech workers union that is like the one NBA players are in. All proposals are the other kind. And none of them encode equal rights for immigrants in their bylaws.
  - ipaddr 6y ago
    The way salary works in the nba is the top players like LeBron can only get paid a % of the salary cap. So half of the teams have a star or two like LeBron making 25-30% of the cap. So the best players all get paided the same. Older players have a min, teams have a cap. Based on skill/age players slot into pay ranges that match their output. These are the maximums for 2021 28,649,250 (players with less than 6 years experience) $40,108,95 (players with 10 years plus) The nba was a bad example.
- deleted 6y ago

claaams 6y ago

I could also post about how police unions protect abusers as well. I was thinking more about guaranteeing rights for Amazon warehouse workers and people like the woman in the article working in datacenters where basic expectations like being able to go and get water aren't going to jeopardize your job. The people who are FTEs at these companies dont need unions. It's the people working for contractors for these companies so they can hide a bunch of ugly practices and cost cutting who need it.

0xy 6y ago
You wrongly assumed that I think police unions are fine. Most unions end up proliferating toxic practices.
worik 6y ago
Every worker needs a union, professionals need associations. There are huge power imbalances at work

cosmotic 6y ago

Your only citations against unions is the same situation reported by two news agencies about a union that is legally obligated to defend their members?

wnevets 6y ago

> Unions depress wages for top performers Someone better let Lebron James know!

penguinbroker 6y ago
bit of an ironic example, lebron is considered one of the most undervalued athletes by contract value. mostly due to salary cap and wage scale restrictions in the nba, things the nba players union agreed to. also see messi's contract for an example of what these athletes are worth in an open market: https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/lionel-messi-barcelona-contract-details-674-million-earnings-leaked-by-spanish-paper-in-bombshell-report/ https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/lionel-messi-barcelona... obviously soccer and basketball aren't apples to apples. but look around the nba and you see many salaries across the top of the scale that suggest the top performers are vastly underpaid. https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-james-makes-less-than-other-sports-mega-stars-chart-2020-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-james-makes-less-than...
- gowld 6y ago
  1. Would LeBron generate less money for his team/league the gap between him and the next best is slightly less? 2. Does the NBA give LeBron a platform to make 2x more than his NBA salary in endorsements? (Yes.)
  - penguinbroker 6y ago
    don't understand the first question as for the second point, not sure what this has to do with the original comment/point, specifically the fact that lebron is proof against the idea that "Unions depress wages for top performers". obviously a lot of complex dynamics here, and one could argue that the nba players union has helped make the nba more successful and all the money that came with that. just pointing out that using lebron as a counterargument to the original comment about wages (ie his nba salary) is a bit ironic.
- wnevets 6y ago
  > obviously soccer and basketball aren't apples to apples. Which is why your comparison messi isn't very good. In fact if you read past the headline, your link explains why.

mushbino 6y ago

If you join a union you're protecting child molesters? I think you flew a little too close to the sun with this FUD. Dial it back a bit so it sounds a little more sincere next time.

david38 6y ago
Very true. You can say if you work for a rich person, you are protecting / enriching child molesters as well. Many wealthy business owners have been convicted of all kinds of illegal activities, including child molestation. What a crap straw man argument.

bsder 6y ago

1) Teachers unions protect everyone Somehow people who talk about "child predators" always ignore the fact that a bunch of people who get falsely charged also get protected. That's REALLY important. My anecdata knows far more teachers who were falsely accused than actual child predators (ratio: 12 to 1). A single teacher can't possibly corral the amount money required for a defense against a school board funded lawyer. 2) Almost all of the "incompetent" teachers left in place are there because the school adminstration won't file the paperwork. School administrators are politicians. They are always looking for their next job. The one thing administrators hate is bad press because it will dog them when they jump jobs. Actually firing a teacher is fraught with opportunities for bad press. No matter how distasteful the teacher's behavior--somebody in the community will likely be on their side. If those people are vocal, firing that teacher dooms your political career--probably forever thanks to Google. Consequently, administrators prefer to simply shunt bad teachers aside rather than risk their career. So, put the blame for incompetent/horrible teachers where it belongs--square on the shoulders of the school administrators who have made a political calculation and refuse to fire people properly.

MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago

Yeah my local school convicted a teacher after he was caught with a minor and his semen on her after she did a rape kit. Dude had been a well known and respected teacher for over 20 years. Unions have shot themselves in the foot. They only benefit the workers and heavily fuck over customers more than they do companies. Unions were there to improve conditions and give fair wages. Not protect, like you said, incompetent workers. But it turned into that.

dang 6y ago

Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological flamewars. They're too repetitive to be on topic here. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26733237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26733237.