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It feels like this has been reposted regularly for years, but the demo videos and slightly threadbare use cases haven't changed at all. Re-imagining how we inte

It feels like this has been reposted regularly for years, but the demo videos and slightly threadbare use cases haven't changed at all. Re-imagining how we interact with computers sounds great, but it doesn't feel like this project is actually going to achieve it's goals beyond letting a small number of lucky users play around with stuff. I'm not sure if darklang is going to succeed, but that seems like a far more fruitful direction to approach the problem from. It's a very hard problem, and they are attempting to make programming a little bit more visual while not removing any power from the user, instead of making it entirely visual and almost completely dis-empowering the user. Importantly, it's actually accessible to people all over the world, and they can use it to achieve real world goals.

scroot 5y ago
This issue here is research funding
crazypython 5y ago
"2020: Realtalk-2020. We're bringing together everything we've learned to create the next iteration of our Realtalk computing system. Realtalk-2020 will form the foundation for the next decade of research and applications." "2022: Dynamicland meets the world, in the form of new kinds of libraries, museums, classrooms, science labs, arts venues, and businesses. We will empower these communities to build what they need for themselves, to design their own futures."
bschne 5y ago
> ...but it doesn't feel like this project is actually going to achieve it's goals beyond letting a small number of lucky users play around with stuff. Will they end up building some product that will be adopted by droves of customers and offers a completely new paradigm for interaction? Probably not. But I'd argue that's hardly where "esoteric" research like this ends up going, and in my book that's OK. Bret Victor, who is behind Dynamicland, never shipped the full drawing app from his interactive visualizations talk as far as I know. Neither did anyone ever get to buy or download the editor he shows in "Inventing on Principle" as a new IDE that offers incredibly great feedback while programming. Nevertheless, his talks are among the most inspiring things I and I think many others have ever seen in the area of HCI, and at least in my case are responsible for a large part of my renewed interest in the field. Will anything out of Dynamicland capture people's imagination and enthusiasm like that as well? Maybe. Maybe not. But the point is to explore, and I applaud those who do.
- endergen 5y ago
  The influence of his talks show up everywhere and are explicitly called out as inspirations. Elm Lang's time travel debugger, therefore redux, hot reloading work, Observable calls him out as influential, and on and on.
  - bschne 5y ago
    Exactly my point — there's space for those who put together amazing but infeasible-as-product demos to communicate lofty ideas, those who take those and repackage them for "mass consumption", and of course the rare genius who does both, and anything in between.
    - IshKebab 5y ago
      I feel like putting together a janky tech demo is not especially impressive though. Anybody can think of screens projected onto paper. It's not particularly interesting that the tech demo is possible. Actually making it usable is the really hard part and the reason it remains a tech demo. That's why Apple is rich. They do the hard part.
endergen 5y ago
I personally hope that the output ends up being systems that are good for individuals with their own dynamic lands at home, not just strong group collaboration. I know there are already people who have setups done in coordination with the Dynamic Land team. I've visited dynamic land also, and the vision of this more tangible visible computation is bigger than the incarnation/progress last shown. I'm a fan of Darklang's goals too. But I do think Dynamic Land is targeting more approachable, teachable, and communal computing. Darklang is going to be more for professionals making backends and doesn't target any user facing audio/visuals whatsoever. It could in the end of course, so I hope it does well as an effort too.
- pbiggar 5y ago
  > Darklang is going to be more for professionals making backends and doesn't target any user facing audio/visuals whatsoever. It could in the end of course, so I hope it does well as an effort too. That is the plan, might be a while away though.
beaconstudios 5y ago
I hope darklang succeeds too, but I personally believe that visual programming is at least partly the way to go. This is because I firmly believe that the "most-correct" view of regular programming is that of a directed graph of computations, and directed graphs don't compress very well into text. I'm building something visual to prove (or disprove) this concept, but I'm also thinking that power users would want a textual language for faster input, as GUIs are better for output where TUIs are better for input.
- sparsely 5y ago
  I agree that visual programming can be great - my argument would be that starting from a model that we know works and making incremental steps towards something more visual is more likely to succeed, than attempting to jump all the way to something fully visual based
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    in general I agree that incrementalism is the best way to improve a model. I'm just not certain how to do that with such a drastic change as going from textual to visual - but darklang seem to be doing a great job at that, and I do hope they succeed at their mission.
    - pbiggar 5y ago
      Thanks! We're very much of the opinion that we got into this mess we're in (gestures broadly) because everything has been incremental to date. That's how you get layers upon layers.
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        Yes 100% - my founding hypothesis was that because language progress so far has all been improvements on opcodes, that the idioms of programming are still based on the human catering to the computer rather than the other way around. It gets subtler over time, but we still have to, for example, emulate execution in our heads while coding, which is really really hard to learn.
crazypython 5y ago
How is darklang related to dynamicland? I only found https://darklang.com/ https://darklang.com/
- theon144 5y ago
  Right, it honestly feels like the parent commenter either misunderstands Dynamicland's aims, or is willfully drawing comparisons to make it seem like the projects are tackling the same issues, out of which Dark comes out as the more successful one (at least measured by "adoption"). I don't see what the "almost completely dis-empowering the user" is about either; if anything, Dynamicland seems the more empowering of the two, whereas Dark's endgame is more efficient development of a fundamentally conventional type of software. It feels rather dishonest; the comparisons are sweeping and vague, with very little substance as to an actual criticism.
bmitc 5y ago
> instead of making it entirely visual and almost completely dis-empowering the user Why do you think that making something visual completely disempowers the user?

scroot 5y ago

This issue here is research funding

crazypython 5y ago

"2020: Realtalk-2020. We're bringing together everything we've learned to create the next iteration of our Realtalk computing system. Realtalk-2020 will form the foundation for the next decade of research and applications." "2022: Dynamicland meets the world, in the form of new kinds of libraries, museums, classrooms, science labs, arts venues, and businesses. We will empower these communities to build what they need for themselves, to design their own futures."

bschne 5y ago

> ...but it doesn't feel like this project is actually going to achieve it's goals beyond letting a small number of lucky users play around with stuff. Will they end up building some product that will be adopted by droves of customers and offers a completely new paradigm for interaction? Probably not. But I'd argue that's hardly where "esoteric" research like this ends up going, and in my book that's OK. Bret Victor, who is behind Dynamicland, never shipped the full drawing app from his interactive visualizations talk as far as I know. Neither did anyone ever get to buy or download the editor he shows in "Inventing on Principle" as a new IDE that offers incredibly great feedback while programming. Nevertheless, his talks are among the most inspiring things I and I think many others have ever seen in the area of HCI, and at least in my case are responsible for a large part of my renewed interest in the field. Will anything out of Dynamicland capture people's imagination and enthusiasm like that as well? Maybe. Maybe not. But the point is to explore, and I applaud those who do.

endergen 5y ago
The influence of his talks show up everywhere and are explicitly called out as inspirations. Elm Lang's time travel debugger, therefore redux, hot reloading work, Observable calls him out as influential, and on and on.
- bschne 5y ago
  Exactly my point — there's space for those who put together amazing but infeasible-as-product demos to communicate lofty ideas, those who take those and repackage them for "mass consumption", and of course the rare genius who does both, and anything in between.
  - IshKebab 5y ago
    I feel like putting together a janky tech demo is not especially impressive though. Anybody can think of screens projected onto paper. It's not particularly interesting that the tech demo is possible. Actually making it usable is the really hard part and the reason it remains a tech demo. That's why Apple is rich. They do the hard part.

endergen 5y ago

I personally hope that the output ends up being systems that are good for individuals with their own dynamic lands at home, not just strong group collaboration. I know there are already people who have setups done in coordination with the Dynamic Land team. I've visited dynamic land also, and the vision of this more tangible visible computation is bigger than the incarnation/progress last shown. I'm a fan of Darklang's goals too. But I do think Dynamic Land is targeting more approachable, teachable, and communal computing. Darklang is going to be more for professionals making backends and doesn't target any user facing audio/visuals whatsoever. It could in the end of course, so I hope it does well as an effort too.

pbiggar 5y ago
> Darklang is going to be more for professionals making backends and doesn't target any user facing audio/visuals whatsoever. It could in the end of course, so I hope it does well as an effort too. That is the plan, might be a while away though.

beaconstudios 5y ago

I hope darklang succeeds too, but I personally believe that visual programming is at least partly the way to go. This is because I firmly believe that the "most-correct" view of regular programming is that of a directed graph of computations, and directed graphs don't compress very well into text. I'm building something visual to prove (or disprove) this concept, but I'm also thinking that power users would want a textual language for faster input, as GUIs are better for output where TUIs are better for input.

sparsely 5y ago
I agree that visual programming can be great - my argument would be that starting from a model that we know works and making incremental steps towards something more visual is more likely to succeed, than attempting to jump all the way to something fully visual based
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  in general I agree that incrementalism is the best way to improve a model. I'm just not certain how to do that with such a drastic change as going from textual to visual - but darklang seem to be doing a great job at that, and I do hope they succeed at their mission.
  - pbiggar 5y ago
    Thanks! We're very much of the opinion that we got into this mess we're in (gestures broadly) because everything has been incremental to date. That's how you get layers upon layers.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      Yes 100% - my founding hypothesis was that because language progress so far has all been improvements on opcodes, that the idioms of programming are still based on the human catering to the computer rather than the other way around. It gets subtler over time, but we still have to, for example, emulate execution in our heads while coding, which is really really hard to learn.

crazypython 5y ago

How is darklang related to dynamicland? I only found https://darklang.com/ https://darklang.com/

theon144 5y ago
Right, it honestly feels like the parent commenter either misunderstands Dynamicland's aims, or is willfully drawing comparisons to make it seem like the projects are tackling the same issues, out of which Dark comes out as the more successful one (at least measured by "adoption"). I don't see what the "almost completely dis-empowering the user" is about either; if anything, Dynamicland seems the more empowering of the two, whereas Dark's endgame is more efficient development of a fundamentally conventional type of software. It feels rather dishonest; the comparisons are sweeping and vague, with very little substance as to an actual criticism.

bmitc 5y ago

> instead of making it entirely visual and almost completely dis-empowering the user Why do you think that making something visual completely disempowers the user?