4 ms·

So turn off iCloud backups?

by api 6y ago

sneak 6y ago
Then your conversation plaintext gets escrowed to Apple via just Bob instead of both Alice and Bob. (Conversations are backed up twice: once by each party.) You'd need everyone you talk to to also disable iCloud Backup. This is pretty unlikely. Easier to just use Signal, where the chat history isn't included in the device backups at all.
- saurik 6y ago
  Signal doesn't--and can't--somehow magically prevent people from backing up their messages insecurely. That they don't support being backed up by normal backup methods on iOS--including highly-secure ones--is a missing feature (and a devastating one at that: people expect to have access to their old messages) more than a security measure. Consider this: the existence of a popular tool that helps people back up their Signal messages wouldn't somehow cause it to be accurate to claim there is a "backdoor" in Signal.
  - sneak 6y ago
    If that tool shipped as part of iOS, were on by default, and silently sent the full message history plaintext to Apple (such as if Apple iCloud Backup stopped respecting the storage class of apps and just backed up EVERY FILE), I think it would be fair to call that a backdoor (in iOS). What if iCloud Backup started including in the backup a snapshot of device RAM? I think we are splitting hairs here. The desire of users for message history in backups is entirely orthogonal to whether or not iCloud Backup is a cryptographic backdoor, in the traditional "plaintext escrow" sense. Indeed, the FBI would not have torpedoed Apple's e2e encrypted device backup system if not. Really it boils down to the fact that it's on by default and the users were never asked to consent to their full chat history being transmitted to Apple effectively in the clear. I imagine most users are unaware of the fact that the FBI has warrantless access to every iMessage they have ever sent or received.
    - saurik 6y ago
      Call a spade a spade: if iCloud Backup is insecure (and it is), then say iCloud Backup is insecure, not iMessage. Your stance on this is FUD because you don't respect the semantic boundaries of the systems you are discussing, and so anyone who decides to truly listen to you and internalize the things you say leaves with a broken mental model rather than an educated stance :/. Every single person who reads what you say "iMessage, now backdoored for the FBI" who decides to stop using iMessage (which wasn't even insecure to begin with) and does NOT decide to stop using iCloud Backup (which will be insecure even if the user is using Signal, along with Signal's iOS product flaw that attempts to circular file your messages, as messaging is but one of myriad things a user does on their phone) is someone you have failed by teaching them the wrong lesson.
      - sneak 6y ago
        I think that iMessage is simply a feature of iOS, same as iCloud Backup. They can't be installed or used separately, they are a single atom. A single atom with message plaintext escrow enabled by default: a backdoor. By your reasoning, would "iOS is insecure" be an accurate statement?

So turn off iCloud backups?

by api 6y ago

So turn off iCloud backups?

Then your conversation plaintext gets escrowed to Apple via just Bob instead of both Alice and Bob. (Conversations are backed up twice: once by each party.) You'd need everyone you talk to to also disable iCloud Backup. This is pretty unlikely. Easier to just use Signal, where the chat history isn't included in the device backups at all.

saurik 6y ago
Signal doesn't--and can't--somehow magically prevent people from backing up their messages insecurely. That they don't support being backed up by normal backup methods on iOS--including highly-secure ones--is a missing feature (and a devastating one at that: people expect to have access to their old messages) more than a security measure. Consider this: the existence of a popular tool that helps people back up their Signal messages wouldn't somehow cause it to be accurate to claim there is a "backdoor" in Signal.
- sneak 6y ago
  If that tool shipped as part of iOS, were on by default, and silently sent the full message history plaintext to Apple (such as if Apple iCloud Backup stopped respecting the storage class of apps and just backed up EVERY FILE), I think it would be fair to call that a backdoor (in iOS). What if iCloud Backup started including in the backup a snapshot of device RAM? I think we are splitting hairs here. The desire of users for message history in backups is entirely orthogonal to whether or not iCloud Backup is a cryptographic backdoor, in the traditional "plaintext escrow" sense. Indeed, the FBI would not have torpedoed Apple's e2e encrypted device backup system if not. Really it boils down to the fact that it's on by default and the users were never asked to consent to their full chat history being transmitted to Apple effectively in the clear. I imagine most users are unaware of the fact that the FBI has warrantless access to every iMessage they have ever sent or received.
  - saurik 6y ago
    Call a spade a spade: if iCloud Backup is insecure (and it is), then say iCloud Backup is insecure, not iMessage. Your stance on this is FUD because you don't respect the semantic boundaries of the systems you are discussing, and so anyone who decides to truly listen to you and internalize the things you say leaves with a broken mental model rather than an educated stance :/. Every single person who reads what you say "iMessage, now backdoored for the FBI" who decides to stop using iMessage (which wasn't even insecure to begin with) and does NOT decide to stop using iCloud Backup (which will be insecure even if the user is using Signal, along with Signal's iOS product flaw that attempts to circular file your messages, as messaging is but one of myriad things a user does on their phone) is someone you have failed by teaching them the wrong lesson.
    - sneak 6y ago
      I think that iMessage is simply a feature of iOS, same as iCloud Backup. They can't be installed or used separately, they are a single atom. A single atom with message plaintext escrow enabled by default: a backdoor. By your reasoning, would "iOS is insecure" be an accurate statement?