5 ms·

In a sphere where we usually choose our names and expect other people to use them, instead of what's written in some official document, I don't see how chosen p

by maweki 6y ago

In a sphere where we usually choose our names and expect other people to use them, instead of what's written in some official document, I don't see how chosen pronouns are any different. Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. You might feel the line between innocent mistake and maliciousness has not been crossed. Other people do disagree.

junon 6y ago
Because pronouns are ingrained into our language centers; we automatically and subconsciously classify people based on physical appearance and derive pronouns from that. For better or worse, it's part of our programming. Names, however, are not. We've learned names are not connected to any physical trait, and thus we process and store them differently. Expecting the entirety of humanity to simply "unlearn" language is a huge stretch - especially for those with gendered languages (English is not a gendered language). Further, the fact that pronouns "hurt" trans people is largely subjective - there is a very large portion of the trans community that would disagree with that assertion. Words are words. Perhaps we should stop placing as much weight in them, fullstop.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  Exactly. Well ... no. People are called Baker because some ancestor was a baker. Then over time the link from the name to the occupation got lost. Just as we might have "derive[d] pronouns from that" but are currently on the same way as with "Baker" - removing the word from it's physical beginnings. Then in the end words are a tool and not a thing by their own - as evidenced that you can hardly read a 500 year old text - including your pronouns, that were different back then. If it helps - at least one party - communication to use different/new pronouns, this is where language will go.
  - junon 6y ago
    Being a baker is not a physical trait.
- mavhc 6y ago
  https://deepbaltic.com/2018/03/20/being-non-binary-in-a-language-without-gendered-pronouns-estonian/ https://deepbaltic.com/2018/03/20/being-non-binary-in-a-lang...
insert_coin 6y ago
The problem is you alone cannot be victim, judge and executioner.
ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 6y ago
The linked blog post says nothing about pronouns specifically, it's making a much broader statement that is clearly nonsense. When you promote putting people on lists, bear in mind that some of us are happy to reciprocate. I certainly wouldn't want to employ someone who thinks "if it offends a trans person, then it is transphobic" is a reasonable maxim.
- maweki 6y ago
  Did you follow the arguments against RMS? https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix "RMS has spent years on a campaign against using people’s correct pronouns." And OP said: "Ah, postmodernism! Where the words are made up, and intent doesn't matter!" I'm not commenting on RMS's views about what makes consent. And I am not stepping into that discussion. But calling people something different than what they want to be called, is just dickish.
  - ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 6y ago
    The OP was responding to the maxim he quoted, specifically: > There is no space to argue over whether a comment was transphobic – if it hurt a trans person then it is transphobic and it is unacceptable. That is a much broader statement - pronouns are only one possible example* of something which might "hurt a trans person". Stop playing games. Edit: Other examples are arguments about trans access to women's sports/prisons/shelters/etc., which TERFs may say "hurt females" and are thus misogynistic. Whose hurt wins?
  - torthrowaway998 6y ago
    This appendix is pretty much filled with lies and misrepresentations of his statements. Please avoid spreading it. It is pretty much "fake news". >"RMS has spent years on a campaign against using people’s correct pronouns." This is false.
dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
> Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. That's true and RMS will gladly call you using any pronouns you choose: https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html#rms-is-not-transphobic https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html#rms-is-not-transphobic
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. How does one express what gender neutral pronoun they want to be called without expressing their preferred gendered pronoun?
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  There are many languages without gender neutral pronouns.
torthrowaway999 6y ago
Pronouns are just a way to refer to an entity in your text, the issue with classical pronouns like he, she, and it is that they imply certain properties about the entity that they refer (that they are a single entity, their gender, and whether they are a human). The pronoun itself is not a gender and I just can't see how using any polite pronoun that tries to not make any assumptions regarding properties of said entity is transphobic. Another alternative is to use the person's name to refer to them. I guess using gender neutral pronouns exclusively for transgender people can be considered transphobic but this is not something that stallman advocates for. In fact his statements regarding gender neutral pronouns do not mention transgender people at all, it seems that he advocates for the gender neutral pronouns to be used for _everyone_ (which should in the long run be advantageous to transgender people). Regardless though, he himself uses the pronouns that people ask him to use for them. So he is basically being accused for being a transphobe for... saying that having a single gender neutral pronoun to replace all pronouns is better? Really? It saddness me that people decide to "cancel" him instead of engaging in a (public or private) dialog with him. There is a good chance that he hasn't even heard their arguments.
gher-shyu3i 6y ago
> Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. So should I cater to someone who wants to be referred to as an Apache helicopter gunship? Where do you draw the line?
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  Try the standard English pronouns and see how it goes.
  - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
    English is not the only language people speak you know.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      We're talking in English about Stallman's idiosyncratic English pronouns. What other language did you have in mind when you wrote Apache helicopter gunship?
      - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
        We're talking about the issue in general, not just what Stallman said. If someone comes up to you and told you he identifies as an Apache helicopter gunship, are you going to think he's insane, or are you going to cater to him?
        pseudalopex 6y ago
        The comment you replied to seems to be about what Stallman said. ("You might feel the line between innocent mistake and maliciousness has not been crossed. Other people do disagree.") It certainly was about names and pronouns. Not a variation on a tired transphobic straw man meme.[1] [1] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-sexually-identify-as-an-attack-helicopter https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-sexually-identify-as-an-att...
quietbritishjim 6y ago
Your comment is posted here as a reply to another comment, but it seems like the content is unrelated. The quoted sentence says nothing about pronouns in particular. Instead, it says that if someone says anything at all that any trans person finds offensive then the person saying it becomes tainted without any recourse. (I checked the post it was from and it hasn't been taken out of context - it really is as general of a statement as it appears to be on its own.) Ironically, that means that if a trans person finds your comment, or the blog author's post, offensive in some way then now you or they are transphobic and there's nothing you can say or do to dispute that. Clearly, that is unacceptable.
- henrikschroder 6y ago
  Thanks for expanding my snarky comment, but yes, this is exactly my point as well. There is absolutely no way to defend yourself against this kind of smear, because someone, somewhere, will find your opinion offensive. And if that's enough to cancel you, then it's no longer possible to have public opinions. At all. But intent matters. It has to matter. I believe RMS' intent with his "they/them is plural" statement is to be a grammar nazi, and not that he wants to put down trans people. His argument is tactless, pedantic, and he's wrong because language changes and grammar is descriptive, not prescriptive, but he's not transphobic. He's wrong, but not because some trans person took offense with what he wrote.

by maweki 6y ago

junon 6y ago

Because pronouns are ingrained into our language centers; we automatically and subconsciously classify people based on physical appearance and derive pronouns from that. For better or worse, it's part of our programming. Names, however, are not. We've learned names are not connected to any physical trait, and thus we process and store them differently. Expecting the entirety of humanity to simply "unlearn" language is a huge stretch - especially for those with gendered languages (English is not a gendered language). Further, the fact that pronouns "hurt" trans people is largely subjective - there is a very large portion of the trans community that would disagree with that assertion. Words are words. Perhaps we should stop placing as much weight in them, fullstop.

KingOfCoders 6y ago
Exactly. Well ... no. People are called Baker because some ancestor was a baker. Then over time the link from the name to the occupation got lost. Just as we might have "derive[d] pronouns from that" but are currently on the same way as with "Baker" - removing the word from it's physical beginnings. Then in the end words are a tool and not a thing by their own - as evidenced that you can hardly read a 500 year old text - including your pronouns, that were different back then. If it helps - at least one party - communication to use different/new pronouns, this is where language will go.
- junon 6y ago
  Being a baker is not a physical trait.
mavhc 6y ago
https://deepbaltic.com/2018/03/20/being-non-binary-in-a-language-without-gendered-pronouns-estonian/ https://deepbaltic.com/2018/03/20/being-non-binary-in-a-lang...

insert_coin 6y ago

The problem is you alone cannot be victim, judge and executioner.

ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 6y ago

The linked blog post says nothing about pronouns specifically, it's making a much broader statement that is clearly nonsense. When you promote putting people on lists, bear in mind that some of us are happy to reciprocate. I certainly wouldn't want to employ someone who thinks "if it offends a trans person, then it is transphobic" is a reasonable maxim.

maweki 6y ago
Did you follow the arguments against RMS? https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix "RMS has spent years on a campaign against using people’s correct pronouns." And OP said: "Ah, postmodernism! Where the words are made up, and intent doesn't matter!" I'm not commenting on RMS's views about what makes consent. And I am not stepping into that discussion. But calling people something different than what they want to be called, is just dickish.
- ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 6y ago
  The OP was responding to the maxim he quoted, specifically: > There is no space to argue over whether a comment was transphobic – if it hurt a trans person then it is transphobic and it is unacceptable. That is a much broader statement - pronouns are only one possible example* of something which might "hurt a trans person". Stop playing games. Edit: Other examples are arguments about trans access to women's sports/prisons/shelters/etc., which TERFs may say "hurt females" and are thus misogynistic. Whose hurt wins?
- torthrowaway998 6y ago
  This appendix is pretty much filled with lies and misrepresentations of his statements. Please avoid spreading it. It is pretty much "fake news". >"RMS has spent years on a campaign against using people’s correct pronouns." This is false.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago

> Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. That's true and RMS will gladly call you using any pronouns you choose: https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html#rms-is-not-transphobic https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html#rms-is-not-transphobic

boomboomsubban 6y ago

>Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. How does one express what gender neutral pronoun they want to be called without expressing their preferred gendered pronoun?

gher-shyu3i 6y ago
There are many languages without gender neutral pronouns.

torthrowaway999 6y ago

Pronouns are just a way to refer to an entity in your text, the issue with classical pronouns like he, she, and it is that they imply certain properties about the entity that they refer (that they are a single entity, their gender, and whether they are a human). The pronoun itself is not a gender and I just can't see how using any polite pronoun that tries to not make any assumptions regarding properties of said entity is transphobic. Another alternative is to use the person's name to refer to them. I guess using gender neutral pronouns exclusively for transgender people can be considered transphobic but this is not something that stallman advocates for. In fact his statements regarding gender neutral pronouns do not mention transgender people at all, it seems that he advocates for the gender neutral pronouns to be used for _everyone_ (which should in the long run be advantageous to transgender people). Regardless though, he himself uses the pronouns that people ask him to use for them. So he is basically being accused for being a transphobe for... saying that having a single gender neutral pronoun to replace all pronouns is better? Really? It saddness me that people decide to "cancel" him instead of engaging in a (public or private) dialog with him. There is a good chance that he hasn't even heard their arguments.

gher-shyu3i 6y ago

> Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. So should I cater to someone who wants to be referred to as an Apache helicopter gunship? Where do you draw the line?

pseudalopex 6y ago
Try the standard English pronouns and see how it goes.
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  English is not the only language people speak you know.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    We're talking in English about Stallman's idiosyncratic English pronouns. What other language did you have in mind when you wrote Apache helicopter gunship?
    - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
      We're talking about the issue in general, not just what Stallman said. If someone comes up to you and told you he identifies as an Apache helicopter gunship, are you going to think he's insane, or are you going to cater to him?
      - pseudalopex 6y ago
        The comment you replied to seems to be about what Stallman said. ("You might feel the line between innocent mistake and maliciousness has not been crossed. Other people do disagree.") It certainly was about names and pronouns. Not a variation on a tired transphobic straw man meme.[1] [1] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-sexually-identify-as-an-attack-helicopter https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-sexually-identify-as-an-att...

quietbritishjim 6y ago

Your comment is posted here as a reply to another comment, but it seems like the content is unrelated. The quoted sentence says nothing about pronouns in particular. Instead, it says that if someone says anything at all that any trans person finds offensive then the person saying it becomes tainted without any recourse. (I checked the post it was from and it hasn't been taken out of context - it really is as general of a statement as it appears to be on its own.) Ironically, that means that if a trans person finds your comment, or the blog author's post, offensive in some way then now you or they are transphobic and there's nothing you can say or do to dispute that. Clearly, that is unacceptable.

henrikschroder 6y ago
Thanks for expanding my snarky comment, but yes, this is exactly my point as well. There is absolutely no way to defend yourself against this kind of smear, because someone, somewhere, will find your opinion offensive. And if that's enough to cancel you, then it's no longer possible to have public opinions. At all. But intent matters. It has to matter. I believe RMS' intent with his "they/them is plural" statement is to be a grammar nazi, and not that he wants to put down trans people. His argument is tactless, pedantic, and he's wrong because language changes and grammar is descriptive, not prescriptive, but he's not transphobic. He's wrong, but not because some trans person took offense with what he wrote.