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> It's just a little on the nose to be making a donation that small. No good deed goes unpunished [0]. The irony is that if Apple hadn't given them a dime, we

> It's just a little on the nose to be making a donation that small. No good deed goes unpunished [0]. The irony is that if Apple hadn't given them a dime, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Instead, they did them give them (a little bit of) money and are now being criticised for it! -- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_good_deed_goes_unpunished https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_good_deed_goes_unpunished

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago
Apple has $ 195.57 billion cash reserves [1], are you seriously trying to say that them giving $250 is a good deed? It's like driving by a homeless person in a stretch limo and giving them $0.10. It's an insult, not a donation. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/apple-q1-cash-hoard-heres-how-much-apple-has-on-hand.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/apple-q1-cash-hoard-heres-ho...
- yladiz 6y ago
  What? No it’s not. The important party here is the receiver of the money, not the giver. If an insanely rich person and a regular person both give a homeless person $250, in both cases that’s still probably a big deal for the homeless person. Could and should the rich person give more? Maybe, but I don’t think that should be the sole focus.
  - bialpio 6y ago
    Would your opinion change in any way if it turned out the homeless person donated their kidney to the rich person a couple of years ago? It seems to me that the broader context matters here as well.
    - greedo 6y ago
      When someone donates a kidney, they lose the kidney. FBSD didn't lose anything when Apple adopted their freely available code.
      - fuy 6y ago
        Eh, still, when someone donates a kidney, someone gets a kidney. You could say FBSD didn't lose anything, but surely Apple did get quite a bit?
      - heavyset_go 6y ago
        Someone who uses your code is a potential contributor, either as a customer, licensee, or collaborator. It's a tragedy of the commons scenario, and one could argue that a different license or terms might've prevented FreeBSD from losing those contributors.
    - ProtoAES256 6y ago
      This might be an unpopular opinion, but Apple is a company, not a charity. They shouldn't be held high moral standards. In this kidney-rich person scenario, if the homeless person donated(open source) the kidney without hoping for forced payment in any form, who is it to blame the rich person for not handing out money? They gave only a little sure, but they really really don't have the obligation to donate. It is morally wrong, but morally wrong stuffs are not the reason to got pitchfork on them. My view is that if they donate a huge lump sum of money, great! If they don't, fine by me too.
      - rapind 6y ago
        It’s not illegal to for rich kidney recipient to be a douche, but I can still call them out on it. That’s all this is. No one is threatening legal action against Apple. Some of us are just remarking on how douchey they are in regards to open source. Many of us have done so in the past, and yes this small donation is bringing more attention to that.
        ProtoAES256 6y ago
        I whole-heartedly agree on Apple being the douche here. But discussions should be treaded carefully to a constructive theme instead of another flame war. I still hold my opinion but I did see your point. Edit: Your edit seems to align to my view. Ignore this comment
      - messe 6y ago
        > This might be an unpopular opinion, but Apple is a company, not a charity. They shouldn't be held high moral standards Reminds me of Charlie Stross' talk about predicting the future of sociopathic AI's by comparing them to corporations. I think it's a huge issue in modern society that we have these powerful entities treated on a similar footing to people, but that are expected not to have moral standards.
  - LastJuggernaut 6y ago
    But the recipient of the $250 is not a homeless person, we're talking about the software foundation Apple staked their entire business on. Universities receive larger endowments from ordinary college graduates with far less money to give.
- BitwiseFool 6y ago
  It's a better deed than giving $0. But it's a damned if you do, nobody would notice if you didn't kind of situation.
- brutal_chaos_ 6y ago
  Apple donates $0, we say nothing. Apple donates $250, out comes the torches and pitchforks. We only care because money was given. $250 > $0, so on the whole, it is a good deed. In perspective, Apple having hundreds of billions available, does make the donation look like a slap in the face.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 6y ago
    People very much complain in years Apple donates 0$.
    - brutal_chaos_ 6y ago
      Good to know! It seems when money is given the crowd is louder, however. But that could just be my perspective.
  - pydry 6y ago
    >Apple donates $0, we say nothing. I definitely remember this being discussed on HN previously. IIRC somebody even said that they were donating by hiring people who worked on BSD.
  - dataflow 6y ago
    > Apple donates $0, we say nothing. "We say nothing" does not imply "we are OK with it". It might just be that people aren't thinking about this issue 24/7.
    - megablast 6y ago
      If a tree falls in the forest...
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    It's bad in the way that tipping 5 cents is worse than not tipping at all (in countries where tipping is not expected like most of Europe). It's a bit of an insult.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  It’s probably an employee match. My previous employer matched contributions 1:1 and donated $500 to a local charity that provides kids with hot meals, homework help and a friendly environment out of trouble. My employer at the time made a few billion dollars a year in profit. What would be an appropriate match? 10x my donation? 500x? Maybe you should be angry at Apple employees for donating to causes that aren’t FreeBSD? Or maybe it would make sense to take it for what it is — an effort to encourage and support employee giving.
- lmilcin 6y ago
  The point is it is not a bad deed. It is not like Apple was making rounds marketing their contribution. Somebody had to spot this to report it. Rather than criticize take a look at everybody else who did not give anything.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> The irony is that if Apple hadn't given them a dime, we wouldn't even be having this conversation Apple's relationship with open-source software is a criticism that is brought up often. So, yes, we wouldn't be having this specific conversation had Apple not donated, but we've had, and will continue to have, very similar conversations and criticisms without donations.
closeparen 6y ago
https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...
agumonkey 6y ago
Fair point. Still I wonder how the discussion went at Apple. "Let's be generous. Give 0.00000000001% of our revenues."

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 6y ago

Apple has $ 195.57 billion cash reserves [1], are you seriously trying to say that them giving $250 is a good deed? It's like driving by a homeless person in a stretch limo and giving them $0.10. It's an insult, not a donation. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/apple-q1-cash-hoard-heres-how-much-apple-has-on-hand.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/apple-q1-cash-hoard-heres-ho...

yladiz 6y ago
What? No it’s not. The important party here is the receiver of the money, not the giver. If an insanely rich person and a regular person both give a homeless person $250, in both cases that’s still probably a big deal for the homeless person. Could and should the rich person give more? Maybe, but I don’t think that should be the sole focus.
- bialpio 6y ago
  Would your opinion change in any way if it turned out the homeless person donated their kidney to the rich person a couple of years ago? It seems to me that the broader context matters here as well.
  - greedo 6y ago
    When someone donates a kidney, they lose the kidney. FBSD didn't lose anything when Apple adopted their freely available code.
    - fuy 6y ago
      Eh, still, when someone donates a kidney, someone gets a kidney. You could say FBSD didn't lose anything, but surely Apple did get quite a bit?
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      Someone who uses your code is a potential contributor, either as a customer, licensee, or collaborator. It's a tragedy of the commons scenario, and one could argue that a different license or terms might've prevented FreeBSD from losing those contributors.
  - ProtoAES256 6y ago
    This might be an unpopular opinion, but Apple is a company, not a charity. They shouldn't be held high moral standards. In this kidney-rich person scenario, if the homeless person donated(open source) the kidney without hoping for forced payment in any form, who is it to blame the rich person for not handing out money? They gave only a little sure, but they really really don't have the obligation to donate. It is morally wrong, but morally wrong stuffs are not the reason to got pitchfork on them. My view is that if they donate a huge lump sum of money, great! If they don't, fine by me too.
    - rapind 6y ago
      It’s not illegal to for rich kidney recipient to be a douche, but I can still call them out on it. That’s all this is. No one is threatening legal action against Apple. Some of us are just remarking on how douchey they are in regards to open source. Many of us have done so in the past, and yes this small donation is bringing more attention to that.
      - ProtoAES256 6y ago
        I whole-heartedly agree on Apple being the douche here. But discussions should be treaded carefully to a constructive theme instead of another flame war. I still hold my opinion but I did see your point. Edit: Your edit seems to align to my view. Ignore this comment
    - messe 6y ago
      > This might be an unpopular opinion, but Apple is a company, not a charity. They shouldn't be held high moral standards Reminds me of Charlie Stross' talk about predicting the future of sociopathic AI's by comparing them to corporations. I think it's a huge issue in modern society that we have these powerful entities treated on a similar footing to people, but that are expected not to have moral standards.
- LastJuggernaut 6y ago
  But the recipient of the $250 is not a homeless person, we're talking about the software foundation Apple staked their entire business on. Universities receive larger endowments from ordinary college graduates with far less money to give.
BitwiseFool 6y ago
It's a better deed than giving $0. But it's a damned if you do, nobody would notice if you didn't kind of situation.
brutal_chaos_ 6y ago
Apple donates $0, we say nothing. Apple donates $250, out comes the torches and pitchforks. We only care because money was given. $250 > $0, so on the whole, it is a good deed. In perspective, Apple having hundreds of billions available, does make the donation look like a slap in the face.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 6y ago
  People very much complain in years Apple donates 0$.
  - brutal_chaos_ 6y ago
    Good to know! It seems when money is given the crowd is louder, however. But that could just be my perspective.
- pydry 6y ago
  >Apple donates $0, we say nothing. I definitely remember this being discussed on HN previously. IIRC somebody even said that they were donating by hiring people who worked on BSD.
- dataflow 6y ago
  > Apple donates $0, we say nothing. "We say nothing" does not imply "we are OK with it". It might just be that people aren't thinking about this issue 24/7.
  - megablast 6y ago
    If a tree falls in the forest...
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  It's bad in the way that tipping 5 cents is worse than not tipping at all (in countries where tipping is not expected like most of Europe). It's a bit of an insult.
Spooky23 6y ago
It’s probably an employee match. My previous employer matched contributions 1:1 and donated $500 to a local charity that provides kids with hot meals, homework help and a friendly environment out of trouble. My employer at the time made a few billion dollars a year in profit. What would be an appropriate match? 10x my donation? 500x? Maybe you should be angry at Apple employees for donating to causes that aren’t FreeBSD? Or maybe it would make sense to take it for what it is — an effort to encourage and support employee giving.
lmilcin 6y ago
The point is it is not a bad deed. It is not like Apple was making rounds marketing their contribution. Somebody had to spot this to report it. Rather than criticize take a look at everybody else who did not give anything.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> The irony is that if Apple hadn't given them a dime, we wouldn't even be having this conversation Apple's relationship with open-source software is a criticism that is brought up often. So, yes, we wouldn't be having this specific conversation had Apple not donated, but we've had, and will continue to have, very similar conversations and criticisms without donations.

closeparen 6y ago

https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...

agumonkey 6y ago

Fair point. Still I wonder how the discussion went at Apple. "Let's be generous. Give 0.00000000001% of our revenues."