3 ms·

I'm pretty sure I learned the basics of international politics from reading Dune. Sometimes the most effective learning technique is tricking your brain into ha

I'm pretty sure I learned the basics of international politics from reading Dune. Sometimes the most effective learning technique is tricking your brain into having fun.

watwut 6y ago
> I'm pretty sure I learned the basics of international politics from reading Dune. Claims like this honestly scare me. It is fiction and thinking it teaches real world politics seriously mixes reality with fantasy.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  Unless it's used as a jumping off point to learn the real thing. You have to start somewhere to even care about a subject if you're going to dive into it.
  - watwut 6y ago
    The claim is "learned the basics of international politics". It is not "was inspired to learn about politics". The latter is not scary. The former is.
    - scubbo 6y ago
      Sometimes people express themselves in slightly-imprecise ways in order to communicate more fluidly. Sensing the nuance in communication is an important skill.
      - watwut 6y ago
        And many times people mean exactly what they wrote. The difference here is not one of nuance. There is really no reason or context to suggest that sentence means something different then what the person wrote. People do argue with straight face that Game of Thrones is historically accurate, do use quotes from fiction as actual arguments about real world. On HN specifically more often then elsewhere.
      - watwut 6y ago
        I will add that someone up thread just explained in detail how Dune functions like real institutions. For real. It is that, no nuance.
- LeifCarrotson 6y ago
  The fact that it is fiction does not mean the insights it provides are also false. Instead, insights are often easiest to glean and clearer when presented as an analogy or when separated by renaming from real-world organizations where yo have preconceived ideas about how the world works. One might look at real-world international politics and wonder why the UN seems toothless. Dune explains how an organization with similar dynamics in a fictional world came to be, and explains the forces that keep it there. You obviously can't find-replace Padishah Emperor<->UN, Landsraad<->Sovereign Nations, and Great Convention<->International Law. But you can think about the incentives and goals that are present for each organization in Dune, and start to imagine what forces are present in the real world. The basics of international politics are mathematical concepts like game theory and power dynamics. These are true whether they're observed in history, read in a polisci textbook, or adhered to in a fictional textbook. True, some fiction is less consistent with its political worldbuilding (Star Wars and Game of Thrones are particularly absurd) and you do have to remember to account for the fictional aspects of a setting in "the real world, X years in the future/past, but with magic _____". Once you account for that, fiction like Dune can be rational and therefore educational.
  - watwut 6y ago
    > One might look at real-world international politics and wonder why the UN seems toothless. Dune explains how an organization with similar dynamics in a fictional world came to be, and explains the forces that keep it there. It does not and is not trying to do that. The author never studied politics or history of UN. Dune creates fictional system that on some superficial level ressembles UN from taking point superficial point of view. This is literally what is dangerous. > The basics of international politics are mathematical concepts like game theory and power dynamics. These are true whether they're observed in history, read in a polisci textbook, or adhered to in a fictional textbook Strongly disagree. To large part because I used to read a lot of fiction and then I read a lot of detailed history in some selected periods. The two were very very far from each other. They were not similar in mechanisms at all.
    - LeifCarrotson 6y ago
- thedanbob 6y ago
  You're reading more than I intended into what I wrote. When I first read Dune I was too young to know anything about politics besides the simple facts of interactions between nations. Dune helped me understand why a nation might react to a particular situation a particular way; the motivations behind the actions. So when I learned about real international politics later, I was better equipped to understand what was going on. Obviously I know that Dune politics are not real-life politics.
NoOneNew 6y ago
Absolutely. Hell, how many people self taught themselves the real life influences of Game of Thrones, Vikings, the Last Kingdom, Master and Commander, etc? Sure, not everyone, but I bet theres a bigger history enthusiast demographic because of certain shows, movies and books. I dont think a bigger demographic of history enthusiasts is bad for a society.
- orwin 6y ago
  I became an history nerd because of those. Sadly I now don't have time to follow tv show because my nerdin as is eating too much of my time :/

I'm pretty sure I learned the basics of international politics from reading Dune. Sometimes the most effective learning technique is tricking your brain into having fun.

watwut 6y ago

> I'm pretty sure I learned the basics of international politics from reading Dune. Claims like this honestly scare me. It is fiction and thinking it teaches real world politics seriously mixes reality with fantasy.

NoOneNew 6y ago
Unless it's used as a jumping off point to learn the real thing. You have to start somewhere to even care about a subject if you're going to dive into it.
- watwut 6y ago
  The claim is "learned the basics of international politics". It is not "was inspired to learn about politics". The latter is not scary. The former is.
  - scubbo 6y ago
    Sometimes people express themselves in slightly-imprecise ways in order to communicate more fluidly. Sensing the nuance in communication is an important skill.
    - watwut 6y ago
      And many times people mean exactly what they wrote. The difference here is not one of nuance. There is really no reason or context to suggest that sentence means something different then what the person wrote. People do argue with straight face that Game of Thrones is historically accurate, do use quotes from fiction as actual arguments about real world. On HN specifically more often then elsewhere.
    - watwut 6y ago
      I will add that someone up thread just explained in detail how Dune functions like real institutions. For real. It is that, no nuance.
LeifCarrotson 6y ago
The fact that it is fiction does not mean the insights it provides are also false. Instead, insights are often easiest to glean and clearer when presented as an analogy or when separated by renaming from real-world organizations where yo have preconceived ideas about how the world works. One might look at real-world international politics and wonder why the UN seems toothless. Dune explains how an organization with similar dynamics in a fictional world came to be, and explains the forces that keep it there. You obviously can't find-replace Padishah Emperor<->UN, Landsraad<->Sovereign Nations, and Great Convention<->International Law. But you can think about the incentives and goals that are present for each organization in Dune, and start to imagine what forces are present in the real world. The basics of international politics are mathematical concepts like game theory and power dynamics. These are true whether they're observed in history, read in a polisci textbook, or adhered to in a fictional textbook. True, some fiction is less consistent with its political worldbuilding (Star Wars and Game of Thrones are particularly absurd) and you do have to remember to account for the fictional aspects of a setting in "the real world, X years in the future/past, but with magic _____". Once you account for that, fiction like Dune can be rational and therefore educational.
- watwut 6y ago
  > One might look at real-world international politics and wonder why the UN seems toothless. Dune explains how an organization with similar dynamics in a fictional world came to be, and explains the forces that keep it there. It does not and is not trying to do that. The author never studied politics or history of UN. Dune creates fictional system that on some superficial level ressembles UN from taking point superficial point of view. This is literally what is dangerous. > The basics of international politics are mathematical concepts like game theory and power dynamics. These are true whether they're observed in history, read in a polisci textbook, or adhered to in a fictional textbook Strongly disagree. To large part because I used to read a lot of fiction and then I read a lot of detailed history in some selected periods. The two were very very far from each other. They were not similar in mechanisms at all.
  - LeifCarrotson 6y ago
thedanbob 6y ago
You're reading more than I intended into what I wrote. When I first read Dune I was too young to know anything about politics besides the simple facts of interactions between nations. Dune helped me understand why a nation might react to a particular situation a particular way; the motivations behind the actions. So when I learned about real international politics later, I was better equipped to understand what was going on. Obviously I know that Dune politics are not real-life politics.

NoOneNew 6y ago

Absolutely. Hell, how many people self taught themselves the real life influences of Game of Thrones, Vikings, the Last Kingdom, Master and Commander, etc? Sure, not everyone, but I bet theres a bigger history enthusiast demographic because of certain shows, movies and books. I dont think a bigger demographic of history enthusiasts is bad for a society.

orwin 6y ago
I became an history nerd because of those. Sadly I now don't have time to follow tv show because my nerdin as is eating too much of my time :/