6 ms·

Anecdotal and speaking in terms of EVE, but I think there is a long term benefit to these types of technical games. I used to have zero idea how, "the markets"

Anecdotal and speaking in terms of EVE, but I think there is a long term benefit to these types of technical games. I used to have zero idea how, "the markets" worked in my early 20s. No explanation ever "clicked". About 10 years ago, I was introduced to EVE. Played it and mostly played the economic aspect of the game. Later I found out, even though simplified, the economics are based on real world principles. They even have a PhD to monitor the ingame economy. After one or two years of playing, got bored, moved on. I later read something on the stock market and for the most part, I could follow. I decided to re try learning economics. It was a cakewalk. I'm not saying EVE taught me econ, it just made it super easy for me to understand when I tried again to learn it. As intros to complex concepts, I think these kinds of games have long term intellectual value. As long as you understand you only have a cartoon understanding that creates a decent jumping off point to learning the real thing.

thedanbob 6y ago
I'm pretty sure I learned the basics of international politics from reading Dune. Sometimes the most effective learning technique is tricking your brain into having fun.
- watwut 6y ago
  > I'm pretty sure I learned the basics of international politics from reading Dune. Claims like this honestly scare me. It is fiction and thinking it teaches real world politics seriously mixes reality with fantasy.
  - NoOneNew 6y ago
    Unless it's used as a jumping off point to learn the real thing. You have to start somewhere to even care about a subject if you're going to dive into it.
    - watwut 6y ago
      The claim is "learned the basics of international politics". It is not "was inspired to learn about politics". The latter is not scary. The former is.
      - scubbo 6y ago
        Sometimes people express themselves in slightly-imprecise ways in order to communicate more fluidly. Sensing the nuance in communication is an important skill.
        watwut 6y ago
        And many times people mean exactly what they wrote. The difference here is not one of nuance. There is really no reason or context to suggest that sentence means something different then what the person wrote. People do argue with straight face that Game of Thrones is historically accurate, do use quotes from fiction as actual arguments about real world. On HN specifically more often then elsewhere.
        watwut 6y ago
        I will add that someone up thread just explained in detail how Dune functions like real institutions. For real. It is that, no nuance.
  - LeifCarrotson 6y ago
    The fact that it is fiction does not mean the insights it provides are also false. Instead, insights are often easiest to glean and clearer when presented as an analogy or when separated by renaming from real-world organizations where yo have preconceived ideas about how the world works. One might look at real-world international politics and wonder why the UN seems toothless. Dune explains how an organization with similar dynamics in a fictional world came to be, and explains the forces that keep it there. You obviously can't find-replace Padishah Emperor<->UN, Landsraad<->Sovereign Nations, and Great Convention<->International Law. But you can think about the incentives and goals that are present for each organization in Dune, and start to imagine what forces are present in the real world. The basics of international politics are mathematical concepts like game theory and power dynamics. These are true whether they're observed in history, read in a polisci textbook, or adhered to in a fictional textbook. True, some fiction is less consistent with its political worldbuilding (Star Wars and Game of Thrones are particularly absurd) and you do have to remember to account for the fictional aspects of a setting in "the real world, X years in the future/past, but with magic _____". Once you account for that, fiction like Dune can be rational and therefore educational.
    - watwut 6y ago
      > One might look at real-world international politics and wonder why the UN seems toothless. Dune explains how an organization with similar dynamics in a fictional world came to be, and explains the forces that keep it there. It does not and is not trying to do that. The author never studied politics or history of UN. Dune creates fictional system that on some superficial level ressembles UN from taking point superficial point of view. This is literally what is dangerous. > The basics of international politics are mathematical concepts like game theory and power dynamics. These are true whether they're observed in history, read in a polisci textbook, or adhered to in a fictional textbook Strongly disagree. To large part because I used to read a lot of fiction and then I read a lot of detailed history in some selected periods. The two were very very far from each other. They were not similar in mechanisms at all.
      - LeifCarrotson 6y ago
  - thedanbob 6y ago
    You're reading more than I intended into what I wrote. When I first read Dune I was too young to know anything about politics besides the simple facts of interactions between nations. Dune helped me understand why a nation might react to a particular situation a particular way; the motivations behind the actions. So when I learned about real international politics later, I was better equipped to understand what was going on. Obviously I know that Dune politics are not real-life politics.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  Absolutely. Hell, how many people self taught themselves the real life influences of Game of Thrones, Vikings, the Last Kingdom, Master and Commander, etc? Sure, not everyone, but I bet theres a bigger history enthusiast demographic because of certain shows, movies and books. I dont think a bigger demographic of history enthusiasts is bad for a society.
  - orwin 6y ago
    I became an history nerd because of those. Sadly I now don't have time to follow tv show because my nerdin as is eating too much of my time :/
VLM 6y ago
"Railroad Tycoon" taught the gen-x generation to read and manipulate the various standard financial reports as kids. For some cultural reason we don't teach kids how, for example, in the long run, income statements interact with balance statements until at least their 20s and even then we limit the knowledge to a small elite, although I was an expert on reading financial reports by age 10 due to playing RRT. Certainly the math and logical concepts are not difficult for kids to learn. Why do we intentionally limit "the masses" ability to understand how businesses are financed? Because knowledge is power... Ability to read financial reports is not much knowledge and not much power but its greedily guarded...
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  Oh shit... I used to play railroad tycoon all the time as a kid. That and simcity. It never dawned on me until you said it, I never had an issue understanding finance reports unlike a lot of my peers. I never understood how some people were completely lost when looking at one. Damn, it's an interesting idea if those types of games really helped folks that much to understand more serious, and boring, concepts. Huh... my econ anecdote seems a lot more tame now when it comes to the implications of certain games on society.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  I’m all for basic financial literacy. I think things like how to balance your checkbook/bank account and how to do your taxes should be taught in school, and earlier, because everyone needs to do this. That said, very few people will ever have to read a financial statement in their life, and even fewer will have to produce one. This seems like a very niche skill that you’re only going to need if you run your own business, or if you go into finance or pick stocks or something. It’s fine to wait and only teach it to people going that direction in their careers.
- fendy3002 6y ago
  > Why do we intentionally limit "the masses" ability to understand how businesses are financed Someone in online forum (reddit iirc) said that even if they teach it, not many will follow. So I guess that demand isn't that high to begin with. However if game or interactive actions can somehow teach it, it will reach many more people than lessons.
XorNot 6y ago
This is how pretty much the entire internet learned basic orbital mechanics from KSP. Years of physics, and yet I had no intuitive understanding of what was going on till I'd sunk about 40 hours into KSP - sure, I couldn't plan a real solar transfer trajectory, but I certainly have a much deeper appreciation for why things are the way they are, why rockets have launch windows and the like. There's a difference between sort of seeing an explanation written down, and realizing why you're time accelerating on the launch pad to get the Mun into the right position...
- Akronymus 6y ago
  > Years of physics, and yet I had no intuitive understanding of what was going on... The difference between knowing something and having a intuition is so LARGE it can not be overstated. That is also one of the reasons why I love 3b1b [1]. It just clicks for me on some of his videos. [1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYO_jab_esuFRV4b17AJtAw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYO_jab_esuFRV4b17AJtAw
rcxdude 6y ago
> They even have a PhD to monitor the ingame economy Not anymore, alas (though I seem to recall there was still a process of players explaining to him how certain game mechanics impacted the economy, like the fixed insurance prices for ships making an artificial price floor for the minerals used to make them, as well as producing inflation because of the currency appearing out of thin air during this process).

thedanbob 6y ago

I'm pretty sure I learned the basics of international politics from reading Dune. Sometimes the most effective learning technique is tricking your brain into having fun.

watwut 6y ago
> I'm pretty sure I learned the basics of international politics from reading Dune. Claims like this honestly scare me. It is fiction and thinking it teaches real world politics seriously mixes reality with fantasy.
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  Unless it's used as a jumping off point to learn the real thing. You have to start somewhere to even care about a subject if you're going to dive into it.
  - watwut 6y ago
    The claim is "learned the basics of international politics". It is not "was inspired to learn about politics". The latter is not scary. The former is.
    - scubbo 6y ago
      Sometimes people express themselves in slightly-imprecise ways in order to communicate more fluidly. Sensing the nuance in communication is an important skill.
      - watwut 6y ago
        And many times people mean exactly what they wrote. The difference here is not one of nuance. There is really no reason or context to suggest that sentence means something different then what the person wrote. People do argue with straight face that Game of Thrones is historically accurate, do use quotes from fiction as actual arguments about real world. On HN specifically more often then elsewhere.
      - watwut 6y ago
        I will add that someone up thread just explained in detail how Dune functions like real institutions. For real. It is that, no nuance.
- LeifCarrotson 6y ago
  The fact that it is fiction does not mean the insights it provides are also false. Instead, insights are often easiest to glean and clearer when presented as an analogy or when separated by renaming from real-world organizations where yo have preconceived ideas about how the world works. One might look at real-world international politics and wonder why the UN seems toothless. Dune explains how an organization with similar dynamics in a fictional world came to be, and explains the forces that keep it there. You obviously can't find-replace Padishah Emperor<->UN, Landsraad<->Sovereign Nations, and Great Convention<->International Law. But you can think about the incentives and goals that are present for each organization in Dune, and start to imagine what forces are present in the real world. The basics of international politics are mathematical concepts like game theory and power dynamics. These are true whether they're observed in history, read in a polisci textbook, or adhered to in a fictional textbook. True, some fiction is less consistent with its political worldbuilding (Star Wars and Game of Thrones are particularly absurd) and you do have to remember to account for the fictional aspects of a setting in "the real world, X years in the future/past, but with magic _____". Once you account for that, fiction like Dune can be rational and therefore educational.
  - watwut 6y ago
    > One might look at real-world international politics and wonder why the UN seems toothless. Dune explains how an organization with similar dynamics in a fictional world came to be, and explains the forces that keep it there. It does not and is not trying to do that. The author never studied politics or history of UN. Dune creates fictional system that on some superficial level ressembles UN from taking point superficial point of view. This is literally what is dangerous. > The basics of international politics are mathematical concepts like game theory and power dynamics. These are true whether they're observed in history, read in a polisci textbook, or adhered to in a fictional textbook Strongly disagree. To large part because I used to read a lot of fiction and then I read a lot of detailed history in some selected periods. The two were very very far from each other. They were not similar in mechanisms at all.
    - LeifCarrotson 6y ago
- thedanbob 6y ago
  You're reading more than I intended into what I wrote. When I first read Dune I was too young to know anything about politics besides the simple facts of interactions between nations. Dune helped me understand why a nation might react to a particular situation a particular way; the motivations behind the actions. So when I learned about real international politics later, I was better equipped to understand what was going on. Obviously I know that Dune politics are not real-life politics.
NoOneNew 6y ago
Absolutely. Hell, how many people self taught themselves the real life influences of Game of Thrones, Vikings, the Last Kingdom, Master and Commander, etc? Sure, not everyone, but I bet theres a bigger history enthusiast demographic because of certain shows, movies and books. I dont think a bigger demographic of history enthusiasts is bad for a society.
- orwin 6y ago
  I became an history nerd because of those. Sadly I now don't have time to follow tv show because my nerdin as is eating too much of my time :/

VLM 6y ago

"Railroad Tycoon" taught the gen-x generation to read and manipulate the various standard financial reports as kids. For some cultural reason we don't teach kids how, for example, in the long run, income statements interact with balance statements until at least their 20s and even then we limit the knowledge to a small elite, although I was an expert on reading financial reports by age 10 due to playing RRT. Certainly the math and logical concepts are not difficult for kids to learn. Why do we intentionally limit "the masses" ability to understand how businesses are financed? Because knowledge is power... Ability to read financial reports is not much knowledge and not much power but its greedily guarded...

NoOneNew 6y ago
Oh shit... I used to play railroad tycoon all the time as a kid. That and simcity. It never dawned on me until you said it, I never had an issue understanding finance reports unlike a lot of my peers. I never understood how some people were completely lost when looking at one. Damn, it's an interesting idea if those types of games really helped folks that much to understand more serious, and boring, concepts. Huh... my econ anecdote seems a lot more tame now when it comes to the implications of certain games on society.
ryandrake 6y ago
I’m all for basic financial literacy. I think things like how to balance your checkbook/bank account and how to do your taxes should be taught in school, and earlier, because everyone needs to do this. That said, very few people will ever have to read a financial statement in their life, and even fewer will have to produce one. This seems like a very niche skill that you’re only going to need if you run your own business, or if you go into finance or pick stocks or something. It’s fine to wait and only teach it to people going that direction in their careers.
fendy3002 6y ago
> Why do we intentionally limit "the masses" ability to understand how businesses are financed Someone in online forum (reddit iirc) said that even if they teach it, not many will follow. So I guess that demand isn't that high to begin with. However if game or interactive actions can somehow teach it, it will reach many more people than lessons.

XorNot 6y ago

This is how pretty much the entire internet learned basic orbital mechanics from KSP. Years of physics, and yet I had no intuitive understanding of what was going on till I'd sunk about 40 hours into KSP - sure, I couldn't plan a real solar transfer trajectory, but I certainly have a much deeper appreciation for why things are the way they are, why rockets have launch windows and the like. There's a difference between sort of seeing an explanation written down, and realizing why you're time accelerating on the launch pad to get the Mun into the right position...

Akronymus 6y ago
> Years of physics, and yet I had no intuitive understanding of what was going on... The difference between knowing something and having a intuition is so LARGE it can not be overstated. That is also one of the reasons why I love 3b1b [1]. It just clicks for me on some of his videos. [1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYO_jab_esuFRV4b17AJtAw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYO_jab_esuFRV4b17AJtAw

rcxdude 6y ago

> They even have a PhD to monitor the ingame economy Not anymore, alas (though I seem to recall there was still a process of players explaining to him how certain game mechanics impacted the economy, like the fixed insurance prices for ships making an artificial price floor for the minerals used to make them, as well as producing inflation because of the currency appearing out of thin air during this process).