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I don't get the outrage. Yes, the firmware thing is something you don't have to do with other computers. But seriously, we expect people to have a second compu

I don't get the outrage. Yes, the firmware thing is something you don't have to do with other computers. But seriously, we expect people to have a second computer around when doing anything involved with their hardware. New computer? Need to create a bootable flash drive with an OS. WiFi not working on Linux? Need to download stuff and move it to your machine. Monitor/ethernet/mouse/GPU/anything not working? Plug it into a different machine. Network settings borked? Ping it from the second machine. We're used to this. And Apple, surprisingly, expects your other machine to be a Mac. Because why wouldn't it be a Mac. They expect you to use a Mac or an iOS device to verify your identity, to contact their support comfortably, AND to restore firmware on your other devices. They expect you to use their ecosystem of devices and software. You may not like it, and that's why you probably don't have a Mac, but it's consistent and it makes sense in the context of their philosophy.

Phylter 6y ago
I have a USB stick that I can use to reload Windows at any time. I downloaded Windows and put it on the USB key using their utility and if I were to replace a drive, my OS eats itself, etc. I just grab that stick. It really should be that easy with macOS too. Most people don't have multiple computers and most people that own a Mac are unlikely to have two of them.
- Fomite 6y ago
  "Most people don't have multiple computers and most people that own a Mac are unlikely to have two of them." - I would actually be interested on the stats for this for Mac Pro owners.
- Toutouxc 6y ago
  You can absolutely do that with macOS, you just have to download the OS and create the macOS-installer USB stick on a Mac. The firmware thing is a separate, unfortunate, issue.
- kalleboo 6y ago
  Honestly I would assume nearly all people with a Mac Pro also have a laptop of some sort, and they have a Mac Pro it's likely the laptop is also a Mac.
- satysin 6y ago
  For reinstalling macOS it is that easy. You can create your own USB install media either using Apple's tool or a third party one. Or the more common and easier method is to do an "eraseinstall" which does the same thing but without the need to make the USB media. It does some APFS volume stuff automatically to copy the installer, wipe all other volumes, install, then remove the installer volume. The need for a second Mac is something most Mac users never encounter as it means something has gone seriously wrong or they are a power user doing something "not normal". I'm not defending Apple's decision here, I see pros and cons for it. Just saying that for almost all users reinstalling macOS doesn't require a second Mac. I have been a Mac user (and developer so not a "normal" user fwtw) for almost two decades now and never once needed a second Mac for any restore tasks.
- EricE 6y ago
  What does reloading an operating system have to do with swapping hardware that gets cryptographically mated to the machine it's being installed in?
dTal 6y ago
Except I can make a bootable Linux disk on Windows, and a bootable Windows disk on Linux. I can download Linux wifi firmware on Windows and move it across on a flash drive. I can troubleshoot my mouse on any damn computer I want because it doesn't need third party drivers. We are not used to the requirement that the second computer be running a particular OS made by a particular company.
- dtydgh 6y ago
  Although it's important to have that level of freedom, it hasn't always been the case in the PC world. Furthermore, there are OSes out there working on PC which don't have that level of interop. Finally, some people don't have 2 different OSes installed, and if their setup breaks, they'll surely need another box to fix it. OTOH, needing a second machine for that sort of maintenance (installing a second drive iiuc) seems indeed quite a big requirement.
- stuaxo 6y ago
  Love it how apple fans will contort themselves telling us how every new inconvenience is normal.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    I always wondered what it is that makes some products enjoy customers with very high brand loyalty and others not so much. Microsoft sits at the opposite side of the spectrum with most of it's clients being highly critical of it, and passionately angry at nonsense, except in the case of XBox, other gaming consoles also seem to enjoy very high brand loyalty; I also see it with GNOME.
    - throwawayfood 6y ago
      Marketing/psychology tricks. Apple has convinced people that wearing their products give them "uniqueness". Tesla has something similar, but with "change the world". You will hear other excuses that are more tangible, but those are the brain listing features that have little to do with why someone bought it. Apples poor record on privacy, security, performance, and ease of use should all be stark reminders that marketing sells products.
II2II 6y ago
> But seriously, we expect people to have a second computer around when doing anything involved with their hardware. Not in this particular case. If you are installing an OS on a new drive, all you need is the installation media. You can get that from someone else or prepare it ahead of time. You certainly don't need a second machine on hand at the time of the upgrade or repair. On Macs of a certain vintage, you did not even need that. The firmware has the ability to download the operating system itself over a network connection. Even in the other cases, a second computer is not necessary. It may be convenient to test a component that you believe has failed before purchasing a replacement, but you certainly have the option to purchase a replacement without testing it. It is also relatively rare these days to require a computer from the same vendor to do testing. As for pinging a computer on the network, that implies that you have a second computer to network with. It does not have to be from the same vendor. Even though it is likely an unintentional consequence of Apple's design decisions, this does make a relatively simple upgrade or repair less accessible. About the only thing I can say in Apple's favour is that Mac Pro owners probably have easy access to another Mac. (After all, it is quite an expense to accept without having prior experience with Apple hardware.)
- KptMarchewa 6y ago
  Eh, to be honest, even simple Windows and Linux installations can go so wrong that I'll never do that without having second computer with internet access.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    Methinks that's excessive. All one really needs is something such as SystemRescueCD on a u.s.b. drive on hand, which I always have with me. If one's machine be sufficiently destroyed that it can no longer boot from that, I don't think another computer can fix it.
    - KptMarchewa 6y ago
      Second machine is usually for googling unexpected problems. I'd never attempt using something like SystemRescueCD without that possibility.
fredgrott 6y ago
ever hear of right to repair movement? I can buy a right to repair computer form system76 and always know that I can replace a SSD as SSD reach end-of-life faster than HDs despite Apple's claims that they should be non replaceable.
tzs 6y ago
> But seriously, we expect people to have a second computer around when doing anything involved with their hardware. Sometimes we even expect a second computer with a different operating system or even different architecture. I had a retail Seagate harddrive in my Mac that was going bad during the warranty period. Seagate expected me to run their diagnostic software to get an authorization code to return the drive--and at the time that authorization software only ran on DOS or Windows. I had a Windows PC that I could move the disk to and run the diagnostics on, so just went ahead and did that. I don't know what they would have done if I had not had a PC available. The box explicitly listed the Mac as being supported and said nothing about a PC being required for warranty replacement so I assume they could have been forced to honor the warranty without running the diagnostic, but don't know how much of a hassle that would be.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
It could make sense to have an iphone and a mac. But who needs two Macs? Why are you sp eager to defend them?
- Toutouxc 6y ago
  > But who needs two Macs? There are many reasons. I'm a developer, I like having computers around, so I have multiple computers, including two Macs. Some people just have multiple computers and I'd guess that people who own a Mac Pro will probably have a second, more portable machine. > Why are you sp eager to defend them? Because I believe the i3-Linux-Thinkpad crowd needs to be constantly reminded that there are other people using computers with different opinions who may be actually happy and productive on their Apple hardware and who prefer dealing with minor hiccups like these over running Windows or Linux on generic PC hardware.
  - EricE 6y ago
    >Because I believe the i3-Linux-Thinkpad crowd needs to be constantly reminded that there are other people using computers with different opinions who may be actually happy and productive on their Apple hardware and who prefer dealing with minor hiccups like these over running Windows or Linux on generic PC hardware. Yup. When I just want to get work done and not feel like I'm having to spend more time tending to an active science fair project than getting stuff done I turn to my Macs. I have plenty of friends who prefer Windows and even a few masochists who prefer Linux on their desktops. I never feel the need to criticize them for their choices. I'm not so curious about why someone would defend their choices, but why others who have no idea what someone else's wants or needs are feels that it's OK to pontificate as if their thoughts were relevant or even needed.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  Mac Pro is an expensive desktop computer; people are saying it makes sense someone would also have a laptop for portability in that situation. A MacBook Air is 5-15% the price of a Mac Pro depending on the configuration, not exactly doubling the computing budget. Pros are supposedly typically bought by businesses, too, which would have a fleet of devices. Just explaining—hopefully it helped.
xxs 6y ago
In no case you need a second computer, except for convenience. I can have bootable usb w/ linux and even use my phone with an usb cable to transfer files, or even attach usb wifi with drivers I have already. I can create bootable usb both on Windows and Linux. All of the statements are pretty much false.
EricE 6y ago
I know. Especially when we are talking about Mac Pro (!) users. Even in the HIGHLY unlikely probability that they don't have a second Mac of their own already, they more than likely know someone with a Mac they could borrow for the 10 minutes (tops) it would take to perform this procedure.

Phylter 6y ago

I have a USB stick that I can use to reload Windows at any time. I downloaded Windows and put it on the USB key using their utility and if I were to replace a drive, my OS eats itself, etc. I just grab that stick. It really should be that easy with macOS too. Most people don't have multiple computers and most people that own a Mac are unlikely to have two of them.

Fomite 6y ago
"Most people don't have multiple computers and most people that own a Mac are unlikely to have two of them." - I would actually be interested on the stats for this for Mac Pro owners.
Toutouxc 6y ago
You can absolutely do that with macOS, you just have to download the OS and create the macOS-installer USB stick on a Mac. The firmware thing is a separate, unfortunate, issue.
kalleboo 6y ago
Honestly I would assume nearly all people with a Mac Pro also have a laptop of some sort, and they have a Mac Pro it's likely the laptop is also a Mac.
satysin 6y ago
For reinstalling macOS it is that easy. You can create your own USB install media either using Apple's tool or a third party one. Or the more common and easier method is to do an "eraseinstall" which does the same thing but without the need to make the USB media. It does some APFS volume stuff automatically to copy the installer, wipe all other volumes, install, then remove the installer volume. The need for a second Mac is something most Mac users never encounter as it means something has gone seriously wrong or they are a power user doing something "not normal". I'm not defending Apple's decision here, I see pros and cons for it. Just saying that for almost all users reinstalling macOS doesn't require a second Mac. I have been a Mac user (and developer so not a "normal" user fwtw) for almost two decades now and never once needed a second Mac for any restore tasks.
EricE 6y ago
What does reloading an operating system have to do with swapping hardware that gets cryptographically mated to the machine it's being installed in?

dTal 6y ago

Except I can make a bootable Linux disk on Windows, and a bootable Windows disk on Linux. I can download Linux wifi firmware on Windows and move it across on a flash drive. I can troubleshoot my mouse on any damn computer I want because it doesn't need third party drivers. We are not used to the requirement that the second computer be running a particular OS made by a particular company.

dtydgh 6y ago
Although it's important to have that level of freedom, it hasn't always been the case in the PC world. Furthermore, there are OSes out there working on PC which don't have that level of interop. Finally, some people don't have 2 different OSes installed, and if their setup breaks, they'll surely need another box to fix it. OTOH, needing a second machine for that sort of maintenance (installing a second drive iiuc) seems indeed quite a big requirement.
stuaxo 6y ago
Love it how apple fans will contort themselves telling us how every new inconvenience is normal.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  I always wondered what it is that makes some products enjoy customers with very high brand loyalty and others not so much. Microsoft sits at the opposite side of the spectrum with most of it's clients being highly critical of it, and passionately angry at nonsense, except in the case of XBox, other gaming consoles also seem to enjoy very high brand loyalty; I also see it with GNOME.
  - throwawayfood 6y ago
    Marketing/psychology tricks. Apple has convinced people that wearing their products give them "uniqueness". Tesla has something similar, but with "change the world". You will hear other excuses that are more tangible, but those are the brain listing features that have little to do with why someone bought it. Apples poor record on privacy, security, performance, and ease of use should all be stark reminders that marketing sells products.

II2II 6y ago

> But seriously, we expect people to have a second computer around when doing anything involved with their hardware. Not in this particular case. If you are installing an OS on a new drive, all you need is the installation media. You can get that from someone else or prepare it ahead of time. You certainly don't need a second machine on hand at the time of the upgrade or repair. On Macs of a certain vintage, you did not even need that. The firmware has the ability to download the operating system itself over a network connection. Even in the other cases, a second computer is not necessary. It may be convenient to test a component that you believe has failed before purchasing a replacement, but you certainly have the option to purchase a replacement without testing it. It is also relatively rare these days to require a computer from the same vendor to do testing. As for pinging a computer on the network, that implies that you have a second computer to network with. It does not have to be from the same vendor. Even though it is likely an unintentional consequence of Apple's design decisions, this does make a relatively simple upgrade or repair less accessible. About the only thing I can say in Apple's favour is that Mac Pro owners probably have easy access to another Mac. (After all, it is quite an expense to accept without having prior experience with Apple hardware.)

KptMarchewa 6y ago
Eh, to be honest, even simple Windows and Linux installations can go so wrong that I'll never do that without having second computer with internet access.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  Methinks that's excessive. All one really needs is something such as SystemRescueCD on a u.s.b. drive on hand, which I always have with me. If one's machine be sufficiently destroyed that it can no longer boot from that, I don't think another computer can fix it.
  - KptMarchewa 6y ago
    Second machine is usually for googling unexpected problems. I'd never attempt using something like SystemRescueCD without that possibility.

fredgrott 6y ago

ever hear of right to repair movement? I can buy a right to repair computer form system76 and always know that I can replace a SSD as SSD reach end-of-life faster than HDs despite Apple's claims that they should be non replaceable.

tzs 6y ago

> But seriously, we expect people to have a second computer around when doing anything involved with their hardware. Sometimes we even expect a second computer with a different operating system or even different architecture. I had a retail Seagate harddrive in my Mac that was going bad during the warranty period. Seagate expected me to run their diagnostic software to get an authorization code to return the drive--and at the time that authorization software only ran on DOS or Windows. I had a Windows PC that I could move the disk to and run the diagnostics on, so just went ahead and did that. I don't know what they would have done if I had not had a PC available. The box explicitly listed the Mac as being supported and said nothing about a PC being required for warranty replacement so I assume they could have been forced to honor the warranty without running the diagnostic, but don't know how much of a hassle that would be.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

It could make sense to have an iphone and a mac. But who needs two Macs? Why are you sp eager to defend them?

Toutouxc 6y ago
> But who needs two Macs? There are many reasons. I'm a developer, I like having computers around, so I have multiple computers, including two Macs. Some people just have multiple computers and I'd guess that people who own a Mac Pro will probably have a second, more portable machine. > Why are you sp eager to defend them? Because I believe the i3-Linux-Thinkpad crowd needs to be constantly reminded that there are other people using computers with different opinions who may be actually happy and productive on their Apple hardware and who prefer dealing with minor hiccups like these over running Windows or Linux on generic PC hardware.
- EricE 6y ago
  >Because I believe the i3-Linux-Thinkpad crowd needs to be constantly reminded that there are other people using computers with different opinions who may be actually happy and productive on their Apple hardware and who prefer dealing with minor hiccups like these over running Windows or Linux on generic PC hardware. Yup. When I just want to get work done and not feel like I'm having to spend more time tending to an active science fair project than getting stuff done I turn to my Macs. I have plenty of friends who prefer Windows and even a few masochists who prefer Linux on their desktops. I never feel the need to criticize them for their choices. I'm not so curious about why someone would defend their choices, but why others who have no idea what someone else's wants or needs are feels that it's OK to pontificate as if their thoughts were relevant or even needed.
1123581321 6y ago
Mac Pro is an expensive desktop computer; people are saying it makes sense someone would also have a laptop for portability in that situation. A MacBook Air is 5-15% the price of a Mac Pro depending on the configuration, not exactly doubling the computing budget. Pros are supposedly typically bought by businesses, too, which would have a fleet of devices. Just explaining—hopefully it helped.

xxs 6y ago

In no case you need a second computer, except for convenience. I can have bootable usb w/ linux and even use my phone with an usb cable to transfer files, or even attach usb wifi with drivers I have already. I can create bootable usb both on Windows and Linux. All of the statements are pretty much false.

EricE 6y ago

I know. Especially when we are talking about Mac Pro (!) users. Even in the HIGHLY unlikely probability that they don't have a second Mac of their own already, they more than likely know someone with a Mac they could borrow for the 10 minutes (tops) it would take to perform this procedure.