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Vitamin D: The truth about an alleged Covid ‘cover-up’
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- sjcsjc 6y agohttps://www.buzzsprout.com/1731431/8238542 https://www.buzzsprout.com/1731431/8238542 Relevant discussion with the lead researcher of the Queen Mary CORONAVIT study[0] (due to report in June). [0] https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04579640 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04579640
- lixtra 6y agoThere is also this[1] meta study that claims that you are only about half as likely to catch a cold if you treat your vitamin D deficiency. https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583 https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583 It also predates the COVID craze. [1] https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583 https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583
- tomp 6y ago> But sometimes misinformation can develop even around ideas that have some truth to them So many words and FUD in continued denial that there is more to science than “gold standard” double-blind randomised controlled trials. Bayesian statistics can inform hypotheses at any level of evidence, and zero-cost interventions like “wear a mask” and “take Vitamin D” require just a tiny bit of evidence. And even without any evidence they’re still better than the reverse (“don’t wear a mask”, “don’t take Vitamin D”) which are also without evidence. In a novel crisis, you have to act without firm evidence (I cal this “executive ability”). Most Western governments and medical organisations failed to do that, so now they’re continuing to gaslight the public to conceal their failure.
- HoverSausage 6y agoI thought the early reluctance to recommend masks was because there was a shortage and medical staff needed them more, and there was the fear that constantly touching your face to adjust a mask and incorrectly wearing or removing masks might increase exposure.
- the8472 6y agoThat was part of the message, but another part was that it was "not airborne" (and that messages to the contrary are misinformation) and that healthy people wearing masks has "no medical benefit". All while they were walking around in bunny suits and full face masks in china. https://a.pomf.cat/efwzku.png https://a.pomf.cat/efwzku.png https://a.pomf.cat/kgzdak.png https://a.pomf.cat/kgzdak.png
- scoopertrooper 6y agoThe article does a good job of refuting your points, I'm surprised you made them having read it. You don't want to give people a sense of false hope because it discourages compliance with interventions with known effectiveness, like social distancing.
- Consultant32452 6y ago>...because it discourages compliance with interventions with known effectiveness It's been very disheartening watching so many of our essential institutions toss aside their credibility this last year. I wish I had to words to express how dangerous this is moving forward.
- ThalesX 6y agoI'm not from the US, but I feel the same way. The all powerful European Union just gives me a sense of despair after how they handled this crysis; I feel like I should start building my life with the assumption that I am alone in time of crysis.
- llampx 6y agoIt showed me that failed German politicians go to the EU and become High-Ranking officials there, possibly because Germany is the most powerful country in the EU.
- dmichulke 6y agoIt showed me there are people in power that - together with an army of legal advisers - haven't ever read or written a single private economy delivery contract in their life. I don't know who else was involved but it certainly wasn't just von der Leyen, this was complete institutional failure. Probably as well the most effective Brexit propaganda you can imagine.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
- CuriousSkeptic 6y agoThe official communication here was that it was unclear whether masks increased or decreased spread. The fear was two fold. That people would be sloppier with social distancing when wearing masks. That handling masks wrongly would increase the mask wearers risk of getting infected. So it was not perceived as a zero-cost intervention here at least.
- the8472 6y agoAre those actual, real concerns or just post-rationalizations and coverups for depleted stockpiles which would lead to panic buying? There are many years of prior practice to mask-wearing in many asian countries. And is there any evidence that masks made the Spanish Flu worse in 1913? Also this seems like worrying about second-order negative effects to the extent that one neglects the first-order positive effect.
- azeirah 6y agoI remember the discourse at the time of the discussions in the Netherlands including discussions about that wearing mask = touching face more = increased risk. Not after, but during the discussions.
- londons_explore 6y ago> wearing mask = touching face more = increased risk Within 24 hours that question could have been answered. It would have gone something like this: * Hour 1:. Health minister directs ministry to urgently answer this question, since it will impact policy. * Hour 2: health ministry contacts 5 university professors to conduct study. * Hour 3: university professor decides to invite 50 students in (paying them $50 each) to do a study. Email 1000 people, first 50 to reply get invited in. * Hour 4, professor and assistants go to shop to buy cameras and sticky blue ink. * Hour 5, study begins. Participants have ink spread over faces and cameras sit recording around the room. Participants are allowed to do whatever they like (study, call friends, watch TV, etc). Half are instructed to wear masks except when eating and drinking. * Hour 7, study ends. Turns out the ink dried out and didn't work, but footage from cameras is reviewed. * Hour 9. Exact counts of face touches for each group are produced. * Hour 10. Preliminary results forwarded to the health ministry and other universities. * Hour 11. Other university professors review data and method and say "our best guess is the initial theory of 12 hours ago is likely wrong". * Hour 12: Health ministry gives advice to wear masks. Afterwards each person in this chain is paid generously for dropping all work to handle this urgent matter.
- bildung 6y ago> Bayesian statistics can inform hypotheses at any level of evidence This is wrong. You probably can employ bayesian causal inference if you know that two observed variables have a causal relationship and want to know about the direction. But if you already know that, most of the riddle has been solved a priori. Double-blind RCTs are the gold standard.
- jcims 6y ago> Double-blind RCTs are the gold standard. They are also extremely slow. Appropriate for efficacy testing of new treatments, not as much for public health messaging at the onset of a crisis. It’s important to have a methodological basis for decision making in those early hours where information is sparse and of dubious quality. Without that, people panic and make short-sighted decisions that may undermine the legitimacy of their organization for years to come.
- bildung 6y agoYes absolutely. If things have to move fast, people/institutions have to refer to heuristics. But in my understanding this also is pretty much what the article described.
- rscho 6y agoAre you really sure you are not missing some pieces of the puzzle, here? Well, I'm an epidemiologist and I'm quite sure you are missing some pieces. The systematic failure of this crisis is nothing compared to the societal failure caused by overly assertive people like you.
- _pmf_ 6y ago> zero-cost interventions like “wear a mask” People who told me banning plastic straws was helpful are now calling billions of disposable masks per week a "zero-cost intervention"?
- KptMarchewa 6y agoComparable to benefits, yes.
- danpalmer 6y ago> zero-cost interventions like “wear a mask” At the beginning of the pandemic (and even now), many countries were PPE-constrained, particularly on masks. The messaging was "no need to wear a mask", but the reasoning was that the supply we did have should go to front-line healthcare workers. In other words, the Opportunity Cost was high.
- maxerickson 6y agoAn adjacent example is the continued use of cloth masks long after the supply of high quality disposable masks increased.
- danpalmer 6y agoThat's true. I remember to begin with the messaging was not to use cloth masks as they were essentially useless, so it really was N95 or nothing, and the N95 supply was needed in hospitals. Now we know that a cloth mask is actually better than nothing, and we also have a lot of supply of not-great-not-bad disposable or tightly woven cloth masks.
- maxerickson 6y agoKorean and Chinese filtering masks are readily available and much better than cloth or surgical masks. N95s are also somewhat available.
- throwaway4good 6y agoIt is over YouTube, even amongst the more reasoned ones, and if you take a look at the alt-right crazies like Steve Bannon's show or Alex Jones, their primary income seems either to be selling pillows or vitamin pills. In particular Zinc and Vitamin D - to fight the China virus while boosting your testosterone.
- fxtentacle 6y agoI've never gotten my head around that aspect. I understand why celebrity endorsements work and why people would buy "Iron Pack" bodybuilding supplements from Arnold Schwarzenegger. But isn't it obvious, just by looking at Alex Jones, that "Super Male Vitality" will not work as advertised? Or are there other guys who consider him to be a symbol of Testosterone, health, strength, fertility and sex appeal? Meaning do other guys look at Alex Jones and think "yes those vitality drops work well for him"?
- azeirah 6y agoMaybe? He's assertive, outspoken, and "tells it how it is". I can certainly see how to his audience those are signs of a strong man.
- smcl 6y agoI cannot believe it either, especially when he did a side-by-side of pictures which were (supposedly) before and after taking one of his supplements. Instead of looking stronger, healthier or even just generally better in any way he just seemed slightly ... redder: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/6dhtbb/never_forget_alex_jones_once_posted_before_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/6dhtbb/never_forg...
- UncleMeat 6y agoI think a lot of it is something of a patreon effect. Alex Jones' followers see themselves as fighters in a culture war and buying his merch as supporting "their side". It isn't like he is the only person selling these supplements, yet he charges way more than normal. So I feel that something else has to be happening here besides people wanting "max force" or whatever. Jones is going to attract people who buy into this alpha male nonsense, but converting that into sales has more going on IMO.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- enlyth 6y agoI take Vitamin D in the winter anyway because there's not enough time to get sufficient sun exposure, especially here in the UK. From what I've read hypervitaminosis D is quite hard to achieve, so I don't see the harm in taking it.
- tmikaeld 6y agoThe values are always very individual, both in terms of uptake and varying production qualities. I'd suggest people check their values every other month or so to make sure their values aren't too high. Especially those taking higher grade units, some pills are >5000iu.
- mantas 6y agoIsn't high value for Vitamin D not a problem? Human body can deal with too much Vitamin D by storing it efficiently.
- eptcyka 6y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D_toxicity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D_toxicity Whilst overdosing is hard, its not impossible. There is no such thing as storing vitamins, or in fact, any nutrients _for free_. Edit: am I wrong? Ingesting too much fat will be bad for one's health, ingesting too much carbohydrates, minerals, protein will be too. The same goes for any vitamins. There's no _efficient way to store anything_ if you ingest too much of it.
- PeterStuer 6y ago"The danger, Prof Van der Linden explains, is when people suggest the supplement is a miracle cure and should be substituted for vaccines, masks and social distancing" I honestly have not come across a single instance of this claim. Now I am in no doubt that given the extend of lunatic fringe the internet exposes us to that these people will exist, but then again, if it wasn't vit.D those same people would have some other 'substitute'. To me it is the same reasoning as "we shouldn't recommend seat-belts as some people might see that as a substitution for not speeding". (O.T. How does a 'public service' company justify using all those dark patterns in there privacy 'consent' dialog?)
- bildung 6y agoI know two presidents off the top of my head who were touting hydroxychloroquine as a vaccine substitute, without any evidence.
- petr_tik 6y agoIIRC, HCQ was promoted as an early treatment, not a replacement for the vaccine. This original article is about vitamin D and I agree with GP that I never saw claims that vitamin d alone can sort this out. I’m sure you can find any bunch of freaks on the internet, I was mainly following medical practitioners and select elected officials in this. For me vit d was about improving general levels of immunity with the methods easily available at the time to minimise the death toll, not completely eradicate the virus.
- makomk 6y agoYeah, the only thing that I've seen pushed as a vaccine substitute without evidence is masks, by the mainstream American press - there was this narrative for a while that mask-wearing was more effective than vaccination would be, despite there being at best no evidence and at worst evidence suggesting they were likely to be much less effective than any vaccine even meeting the bare minimum criteria to be approved for use. And if anything, this seemed to be inspired by the fact that Trump didn't support mask wearing. (Now, there did seem to be this idea over in South Korea that untested, in-development treatments could make an effective substitute for vaccination. I haven't seen the same in the US or other western countries though.)
- williesleg 6y agoPlease don't take any vitamin d! More for me.
- kybernetyk 6y agoOh, "the truth" from the BBC.
- lazyweb 6y agoIt's simple really. Have your doctor take a blood sample, get it tested for vitamin D deficiency and regulate your intake accordingly. I've had myself tested december last year, mostly out of curiosity. Turns out I was severly deficient. Not really surprising, being a vegetarian locked inside. Started taking the highest available dosage (20000) via prescription twice per week and now feel much more energetic and "awake" I think. I've had another test a few weeks ago, and while there's no acute deficiency anymore, doc suggested keeping up the current intake for another few months.
- stolenmerch 6y agohttps://vitamin-d-covid.shotwell.ca/ https://vitamin-d-covid.shotwell.ca/ If your goal is to prove that Vitamin D isn't some miracle cure for COVID-19, well good job. It isn't. If you are trying to show that there isn't a decent amount of quality science supporting Vitamin D as a beneficial supplement to reduce the negative outcomes of the disease then you have a LOT more work to do than is done in this BBC article. There is no need for anyone to lie about the results of published science one way or the other.
- m0llusk 6y agoThis article barely touches on the meat of the subject. Vitamin D levels can be measured. There are a broad range of ways to increase Vitamin D levels. Because Vitamin D is involved in so much physiology making sure to get enough sleep and avoid or handle stress tends to increase Vitamin D levels. Vitamin D is present in eggs, oily fish, and organ meats. The most recommended way to increase Vitamin D levels most of the year is to get some sun exposure at mid day. Vitamin D pills are not necessarily part of an active approach to raising Vitamin D levels. Also, much as "Sugar: The Bitter Truth" has changed our understanding of sugar by presenting detailed analysis of the biology so there is also a great deal of specific research about exactly what Vitamin D does and what happens when one becomes deficient. All of this is much more robust than the studies of populations claiming to take pills just as the studies of diet consistently had a range of problems that detailed understanding of the biology did not have.