4 ms·

This is an incredibly toxic way to think about conversation.

by mdoms 6y ago

EvanAnderson 6y ago
Thinking before I speak and having consideration for how my words might be interpreted in the future is "toxic"? Words you say to others have consequences. It makes sense to take that into consideration. That seems pragmatic and polite to me.
- coldpie 6y ago
  The ability to broadcast some random thought you have to everyone on the planet, publicly archived and attached to your name, for all of eternity, is a new ability. We've never had it before, and we're discovering the consequences of that. I think it's reasonable to have some disagreement about how that ability should be handled without reducing that disagreement to whether or not words have consequences (obviously they do).
  - EvanAnderson 6y ago
    I don't think there is any useful conversation to be had re: "forgetting" that public data. It's a matter of fact. Once data is public it's public. There no magical "forgettable" bits for special classes of digital data. Deleting copies pof data from public and quasi-public forums isn't practically possible, short of taking away everybody's general purpose computer. I don't think that's going to happen (and I certainly wouldn't want it to). I think it's just a world we have to live with. I don't particularly like it, but I don't have a choice in the matter.
- harperlee 6y ago
  On one hand, that's true. On the other hand, 10 years down the road, all you have is 140 characters, and you lose the whole context in which something was written. You know, "Qu'on me donne 6 lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre" and all that.
- showerst 6y ago
  In this context, we're specifically talking about young people, who are _literally not yet wired_ to properly evaluate consequences. It doesn't mean they get a pass for anything, but surely at some point in your life you've said/done something that wouldn't pass with modern standards, particularly if it can be cherry picked to the word.
- vlquant 6y ago
  Everyone is triggered by different things. Your bureaucratic style "words have consequences" sends shivers down the spines of many people who grew up in the Eastern block. We know the language that precedes cancellations by now.
- totalZero 6y ago
  The "words have consequences" line of thinking doesn't provide a rationale for the consequences. It is simply a way of avoiding critical thinking about harsh reactions to unpopular statements. You might as well say, "all fallout is good fallout." Quoting Mohandas Gandhi: "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err and even to sin. If God Almighty has given the humblest of His creatures the freedom to err, it passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human Beings of that precious right." Most of those words that have "consequences" nowadays aren't unlawful or even particularly malicious, and some are in fact just jokes and statements of opinion that go against the grain of the zeitgeist. Often, the reaction is more damaging than the words themselves.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  The trouble with that is that the old tweets from an immature brain are amplified beyond their original context, intentionally, so that they hurt a lot of people, and then a punishment is applied as if the author had just deliberately blasted the world with their remark yesterday. People are using the private conversation analogy because so many teens just meant to write to a few friends or use it as a sort of diary. To make them responsible not only for their youthful immaturity their whole life, but for any mental health struggles, and for not having a perfect understanding of the nature of the service, is cruel and non-productive social behavior from the adults. You’re having trouble understanding because you are only imagining yourself making these decisions, and you are a fully grown adult who handles life’s pressures well and you understand Twitter from a product perspective. You will need to consider how others use the service to understand why expecting perfect behavior across every person’s entire life is unwise collective behavior.
  - EvanAnderson 6y ago
    Yours and so many other posts here seem like an argument for now allowing children to use these kinds of services. It also sounds like parenting needs to take into account this new reality. To the extent that it applies in my household I know my wife and I are.
    - 1123581321 6y ago
      I’m neutral on a legal intervention but I certainly agree parents should heavily educate and be restrictive until enough has sunk in. We do similarly with our family. My main concern here is to explain why a young person’s use should not be treated like the use of a sophisticated social media user who is older and more mature.
- mdoms 6y ago
  It makes me sad just to think about a world where every pub conversation and class discussion I've ever had was archived for posterity. That sounds like misery to me.
SamBam 6y ago
Why? If what's being held against you later is so awful that it can't be explained away with "I was immature"/"I was angry in the heat of the moment"/"I have since learned that that's not correct," then it must have been a pretty toxic thing to say in public.

This is an incredibly toxic way to think about conversation.

by mdoms 6y ago

This is an incredibly toxic way to think about conversation.

Thinking before I speak and having consideration for how my words might be interpreted in the future is "toxic"? Words you say to others have consequences. It makes sense to take that into consideration. That seems pragmatic and polite to me.

coldpie 6y ago
The ability to broadcast some random thought you have to everyone on the planet, publicly archived and attached to your name, for all of eternity, is a new ability. We've never had it before, and we're discovering the consequences of that. I think it's reasonable to have some disagreement about how that ability should be handled without reducing that disagreement to whether or not words have consequences (obviously they do).
- EvanAnderson 6y ago
  I don't think there is any useful conversation to be had re: "forgetting" that public data. It's a matter of fact. Once data is public it's public. There no magical "forgettable" bits for special classes of digital data. Deleting copies pof data from public and quasi-public forums isn't practically possible, short of taking away everybody's general purpose computer. I don't think that's going to happen (and I certainly wouldn't want it to). I think it's just a world we have to live with. I don't particularly like it, but I don't have a choice in the matter.
harperlee 6y ago
On one hand, that's true. On the other hand, 10 years down the road, all you have is 140 characters, and you lose the whole context in which something was written. You know, "Qu'on me donne 6 lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre" and all that.
showerst 6y ago
In this context, we're specifically talking about young people, who are _literally not yet wired_ to properly evaluate consequences. It doesn't mean they get a pass for anything, but surely at some point in your life you've said/done something that wouldn't pass with modern standards, particularly if it can be cherry picked to the word.
vlquant 6y ago
Everyone is triggered by different things. Your bureaucratic style "words have consequences" sends shivers down the spines of many people who grew up in the Eastern block. We know the language that precedes cancellations by now.
totalZero 6y ago
The "words have consequences" line of thinking doesn't provide a rationale for the consequences. It is simply a way of avoiding critical thinking about harsh reactions to unpopular statements. You might as well say, "all fallout is good fallout." Quoting Mohandas Gandhi: "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err and even to sin. If God Almighty has given the humblest of His creatures the freedom to err, it passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human Beings of that precious right." Most of those words that have "consequences" nowadays aren't unlawful or even particularly malicious, and some are in fact just jokes and statements of opinion that go against the grain of the zeitgeist. Often, the reaction is more damaging than the words themselves.
1123581321 6y ago
The trouble with that is that the old tweets from an immature brain are amplified beyond their original context, intentionally, so that they hurt a lot of people, and then a punishment is applied as if the author had just deliberately blasted the world with their remark yesterday. People are using the private conversation analogy because so many teens just meant to write to a few friends or use it as a sort of diary. To make them responsible not only for their youthful immaturity their whole life, but for any mental health struggles, and for not having a perfect understanding of the nature of the service, is cruel and non-productive social behavior from the adults. You’re having trouble understanding because you are only imagining yourself making these decisions, and you are a fully grown adult who handles life’s pressures well and you understand Twitter from a product perspective. You will need to consider how others use the service to understand why expecting perfect behavior across every person’s entire life is unwise collective behavior.
- EvanAnderson 6y ago
  Yours and so many other posts here seem like an argument for now allowing children to use these kinds of services. It also sounds like parenting needs to take into account this new reality. To the extent that it applies in my household I know my wife and I are.
  - 1123581321 6y ago
    I’m neutral on a legal intervention but I certainly agree parents should heavily educate and be restrictive until enough has sunk in. We do similarly with our family. My main concern here is to explain why a young person’s use should not be treated like the use of a sophisticated social media user who is older and more mature.
mdoms 6y ago
It makes me sad just to think about a world where every pub conversation and class discussion I've ever had was archived for posterity. That sounds like misery to me.

SamBam 6y ago

Why? If what's being held against you later is so awful that it can't be explained away with "I was immature"/"I was angry in the heat of the moment"/"I have since learned that that's not correct," then it must have been a pretty toxic thing to say in public.