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Energy cost per container for train versus container ship on the same route would be interesting. Also pollution wise you can (at least in theory) electrify th

Energy cost per container for train versus container ship on the same route would be interesting. Also pollution wise you can (at least in theory) electrify the whole route and run electric trains on it, which should make the whole thing quite clean (as long as the energy sources are reasonably clean). For ships that's more involved - IIRC some can run on LNG but otherwise you would basically have to make them nuclear powered if you wanted zero emissions. At least until you have carbon capture & fuel synthesization running.

cwwc 6y ago
Smart but — highly doubt Russian electric will be “clean” in the foreseeable future.
bruiseralmighty 6y ago
Shipping by boat is much cheaper per mile than train. Generally shipping cost functions like this gradient. Ships < Trains < Trucks < Aircraft Obvious considerations other than cost: Ships can only come to port. Trains likewise can only go to rail stations. This makes trains slightly more expensive land ships from a logistics perspective. Trucks can go anywhere over land, but are quite a step up in expense. They are still necessary for something last 10 miles shipping in nearly all cases. Airplanes are special. They are probably best thought of as very fast very expensive trains. Their main drawback being that they need an airport to land and load. Other aircraft (helicopters/bush-pilots). Also a special case. These are quite expensive and generally only used when the landscape precludes the building of necessary infrastructure. Areas where this makes sense are remote by definition; generally landlocked with no nearby airport or roads to/from the nearest airport. Often companies that provide these services like to take passengers as humans who want to travel to remote regions are cost effective in terms of freight ($$$). Blimps (not currently used commercially). Renewed development into using blimps to transport freight is being researched by several governments including the USG. Blimps are quite efficient at moving freight around as they utilize the same physical properties that ships use (buoyancy). They require very little infrastructure to take-off and land; comparable to that of helicopters. Added bonus! Blimps are more difficult to raid by organize crime elements and move slowly enough to make autonomous piloting a possibility. Both factors are expected to be huge cost savers for logistics in the coming decades. For example, one of the reasons trucking is more expensive than trains is the number of humans required to operate the vehicles. Shipping lanes are expected to become more contested as NAFTA begins to contend with a multi-polar global powers dynamic (China, Russia, India (,perhaps even SEA will get their shit together!)). Thus a low cost, low infrastructure, piracy-resistant solution is being searched for. Blimps do have an obvious downside of limited volume and several high profile catastrophes, though these are now a century old. All that being said, we could see blimps beginning to fill in the gaps as early as the end of this decade.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  > Blimps are more difficult to raid by organize crime elements and move slowly enough to make autonomous piloting a possibility. for now... perhaps if blimp shipping becomes common we will see the development of pirate blimps. one can hope anyway :)
  - bruiseralmighty 6y ago
    I also dream of becoming a sky pirate :)
- Scoundreller 6y ago
  I think the other aspect is inventory-time-cost. There's probably a narrow category of things that are high-value/(kg OR L), but not so much so to justify air transit. Or can't be. Maybe loads of lithium batteries? Autos? Some foodstuffs good for 7 days but not 21? Trains can make lots of stops, but that can make a lot of sense for global goods.
- reportingsjr 6y ago
  >Trains likewise can only go to rail stations. This makes trains slightly more expensive land ships from a logistics perspective. >Trucks can go anywhere over land, but are quite a step up in expense. They are still necessary for something last 10 miles shipping in nearly all cases. Trains and trucks can effectively go to the same places for what it's worth. The infrastructure is roughly the same cost. For fairly standard rail it is $1-2 million per mile, road is $1-5 million per mile for a typical two lane road. You don't need a rail station either, businesses can just use forklifts, pallet jacks, cranes, etc to unload rail cars in a very similar way to how trucks are unloaded. Around here in the midwest if you look at google maps you can see that a lot of older businesses had or have rail going to them, but since trucks got massive subsidies over the last 60-70 years trains haven't seen as much use in this way.
  - bruiseralmighty 6y ago
    You are correct, I didn't address the basis for the cost difference until later in my comment. Trucks are more expensive due to the number of drivers needed per freight rather than the cost of a roads vs rails.

cwwc 6y ago

Smart but — highly doubt Russian electric will be “clean” in the foreseeable future.

bruiseralmighty 6y ago

Shipping by boat is much cheaper per mile than train. Generally shipping cost functions like this gradient. Ships < Trains < Trucks < Aircraft Obvious considerations other than cost: Ships can only come to port. Trains likewise can only go to rail stations. This makes trains slightly more expensive land ships from a logistics perspective. Trucks can go anywhere over land, but are quite a step up in expense. They are still necessary for something last 10 miles shipping in nearly all cases. Airplanes are special. They are probably best thought of as very fast very expensive trains. Their main drawback being that they need an airport to land and load. Other aircraft (helicopters/bush-pilots). Also a special case. These are quite expensive and generally only used when the landscape precludes the building of necessary infrastructure. Areas where this makes sense are remote by definition; generally landlocked with no nearby airport or roads to/from the nearest airport. Often companies that provide these services like to take passengers as humans who want to travel to remote regions are cost effective in terms of freight ($$$). Blimps (not currently used commercially). Renewed development into using blimps to transport freight is being researched by several governments including the USG. Blimps are quite efficient at moving freight around as they utilize the same physical properties that ships use (buoyancy). They require very little infrastructure to take-off and land; comparable to that of helicopters. Added bonus! Blimps are more difficult to raid by organize crime elements and move slowly enough to make autonomous piloting a possibility. Both factors are expected to be huge cost savers for logistics in the coming decades. For example, one of the reasons trucking is more expensive than trains is the number of humans required to operate the vehicles. Shipping lanes are expected to become more contested as NAFTA begins to contend with a multi-polar global powers dynamic (China, Russia, India (,perhaps even SEA will get their shit together!)). Thus a low cost, low infrastructure, piracy-resistant solution is being searched for. Blimps do have an obvious downside of limited volume and several high profile catastrophes, though these are now a century old. All that being said, we could see blimps beginning to fill in the gaps as early as the end of this decade.

leetcrew 6y ago
> Blimps are more difficult to raid by organize crime elements and move slowly enough to make autonomous piloting a possibility. for now... perhaps if blimp shipping becomes common we will see the development of pirate blimps. one can hope anyway :)
- bruiseralmighty 6y ago
  I also dream of becoming a sky pirate :)
Scoundreller 6y ago
I think the other aspect is inventory-time-cost. There's probably a narrow category of things that are high-value/(kg OR L), but not so much so to justify air transit. Or can't be. Maybe loads of lithium batteries? Autos? Some foodstuffs good for 7 days but not 21? Trains can make lots of stops, but that can make a lot of sense for global goods.
reportingsjr 6y ago
>Trains likewise can only go to rail stations. This makes trains slightly more expensive land ships from a logistics perspective. >Trucks can go anywhere over land, but are quite a step up in expense. They are still necessary for something last 10 miles shipping in nearly all cases. Trains and trucks can effectively go to the same places for what it's worth. The infrastructure is roughly the same cost. For fairly standard rail it is $1-2 million per mile, road is $1-5 million per mile for a typical two lane road. You don't need a rail station either, businesses can just use forklifts, pallet jacks, cranes, etc to unload rail cars in a very similar way to how trucks are unloaded. Around here in the midwest if you look at google maps you can see that a lot of older businesses had or have rail going to them, but since trucks got massive subsidies over the last 60-70 years trains haven't seen as much use in this way.
- bruiseralmighty 6y ago
  You are correct, I didn't address the basis for the cost difference until later in my comment. Trucks are more expensive due to the number of drivers needed per freight rather than the cost of a roads vs rails.