5 ms·

I care a lot about clean water & air, and I know there are a few places in the US where this is a very serious issue. That said, this piece started feeling a li

by dahart 6y ago

I care a lot about clean water & air, and I know there are a few places in the US where this is a very serious issue. That said, this piece started feeling a little exaggerated as I was reading. Like the first thing I thought was strange is how they sampled a single home in a given geographic area. It’s critically important to find out whether tainted water is coming from the city’s water facility or getting polluted in the pipes along the way. Sampling at the water treatment facility would reveal that. Sampling several homes would do it to. It also seems to lack a lot of comparative context needed to actually understand how levels of chemical compare, how much is in bottled water, how much is in other countries, how much is in “clean” water systems. Anyway, I got to the bottom and saw the line about funding of the series and suddenly thought maybe some industry was funding this. I googled for a minute and didn’t see any donor lists, but I did immediately bump into this article by the American Council on Science and Health: (Is this a reputable organization?) “Toxic America: The Guardian Spreads Chemophobia And Anti-Americanism” https://www.acsh.org/news/2019/07/01/toxic-america-guardian-spreads-chemophobia-and-anti-americanism-14128 https://www.acsh.org/news/2019/07/01/toxic-america-guardian-...

ping_pong 6y ago
I actually donate to ACSH because during the Pandemic, they had the most level-headed and accurate reporting of any source that I could find. But they do tend to pooh-pooh any anti-chemical reporting. They are very data-driven so they don't "worry" about things like PFAS because there hasn't been any proven deaths from it, which I find a bit too arrogant. They are also very pro-GMO, which I disagree with. However, I still support them with my donations because we need level-headed reporting like this. Here's an article from today that I just read that shows their philosophy on anti-hysteria media. https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/04/01/abc-news-terrible-scary-and-inaccurate-vaccine-headline-15448 https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/04/01/abc-news-terrible-scary...
cowmoo728 6y ago
Given that ACSH documents leaked in 2013 indicated that they were offering to put out industry-friendly press releases in exchange for cash, I would wager that they're not a reputable source. They also seem to be vociferously anti-Obama and weirdly pro tobacco. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Council_on_Science_and_Health#Funding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Council_on_Science_an...
- iudqnolq 6y ago
  It seems like a long history. Here's another example from the 90s > In a 1992 internal memo by Whelan disclosed by Consumer Reports, Whelan directed her staff to ask McNeil Specialty for $10,000 toward a white paper on sweeteners, and she disclosed that her staff would seek "more CCC [Calorie Control Council] money... to help us get new sweetener booklet out". McNeil Specialty Products (now McNeil Nutritionals) owns the US marketing rights to Splenda, the branded name of the artificial sweetener sucralose; the Calorie Control Council is an industry trade association for producers of artificial sweeteners, fat substitutes, and low-calorie foods. The same memo instructs that staffers give "special attention" to "Mr. McDermott at Searle about meat money".
happytoexplain 6y ago
The first pull quote merely demonstrates the Guardian relating America to other countries, and while their criticism may be fair or unfair, calling it "Anti-Americanism" makes me feel like the author is playing identity politics. It smacks of a refusal to be honest about America's failures in service of playing the side-taking game.
stfp 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_industry_playbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_industry_playbook
kodah 6y ago
> It’s critically important to find out whether tainted water is coming from the city’s water facility or getting polluted in the pipes along the way All of the above. Water facilities seem to get tainted the way Flints water facility was tainted, cost cutting. Some things, like brain eating amoebas are hard to get rid of in totality, but in the right environment they could thrive. Water mains and lateral lines get damaged from over and under pressurization constantly. Fire hydrants are a big source of this. This damage can be difficult to locate without real time digital water meters because pressurization across the system is constantly in flux. Source: worked at a digital water metering company
- Scoundreller 6y ago
  Flint's issue was the pipes. When they were supplied by Detroit, anti-corrosion chemicals were added by the water facility. But when they switched to own river's suppliers, the anti-corrosion wasn't added and caused lead in the pipes to flake off/absorb into the water. It takes years to build up the protective layer that retains lead in the pipes. Unsure how long it takes to decay, but I guess Flint was a real-world study of that since it usually isn't removed once added. It's not a 100% regular thing. My hometown just started adding it in 2018: https://www.hamilton.ca/home-property-and-development/water-sewer/corrosion-control https://www.hamilton.ca/home-property-and-development/water-...
  - kodah 6y ago
    I think that's a matter of perspective that you're arguing, and a bit pedantic to say the least. People that work in infrastructure will tell you that replacing and repairing infrastructure is an impossibly imbalanced equation, it simply degrades too fast. So, lead pipes are to be expected, among other things. Lead pipes are just fine as long as there's chemicals in the water that build up a rusty layer. Flint, when it switched plants, did not use the chemical they had in their previous plant. I can't remember if it was because a machine was broken or if it was more direct cost cutting, but both come down to cost.
    - Scoundreller 6y ago

by dahart 6y ago

ping_pong 6y ago

I actually donate to ACSH because during the Pandemic, they had the most level-headed and accurate reporting of any source that I could find. But they do tend to pooh-pooh any anti-chemical reporting. They are very data-driven so they don't "worry" about things like PFAS because there hasn't been any proven deaths from it, which I find a bit too arrogant. They are also very pro-GMO, which I disagree with. However, I still support them with my donations because we need level-headed reporting like this. Here's an article from today that I just read that shows their philosophy on anti-hysteria media. https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/04/01/abc-news-terrible-scary-and-inaccurate-vaccine-headline-15448 https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/04/01/abc-news-terrible-scary...

cowmoo728 6y ago

Given that ACSH documents leaked in 2013 indicated that they were offering to put out industry-friendly press releases in exchange for cash, I would wager that they're not a reputable source. They also seem to be vociferously anti-Obama and weirdly pro tobacco. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Council_on_Science_and_Health#Funding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Council_on_Science_an...

iudqnolq 6y ago
It seems like a long history. Here's another example from the 90s > In a 1992 internal memo by Whelan disclosed by Consumer Reports, Whelan directed her staff to ask McNeil Specialty for $10,000 toward a white paper on sweeteners, and she disclosed that her staff would seek "more CCC [Calorie Control Council] money... to help us get new sweetener booklet out". McNeil Specialty Products (now McNeil Nutritionals) owns the US marketing rights to Splenda, the branded name of the artificial sweetener sucralose; the Calorie Control Council is an industry trade association for producers of artificial sweeteners, fat substitutes, and low-calorie foods. The same memo instructs that staffers give "special attention" to "Mr. McDermott at Searle about meat money".

happytoexplain 6y ago

The first pull quote merely demonstrates the Guardian relating America to other countries, and while their criticism may be fair or unfair, calling it "Anti-Americanism" makes me feel like the author is playing identity politics. It smacks of a refusal to be honest about America's failures in service of playing the side-taking game.

stfp 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_industry_playbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_industry_playbook

kodah 6y ago

> It’s critically important to find out whether tainted water is coming from the city’s water facility or getting polluted in the pipes along the way All of the above. Water facilities seem to get tainted the way Flints water facility was tainted, cost cutting. Some things, like brain eating amoebas are hard to get rid of in totality, but in the right environment they could thrive. Water mains and lateral lines get damaged from over and under pressurization constantly. Fire hydrants are a big source of this. This damage can be difficult to locate without real time digital water meters because pressurization across the system is constantly in flux. Source: worked at a digital water metering company

Scoundreller 6y ago
Flint's issue was the pipes. When they were supplied by Detroit, anti-corrosion chemicals were added by the water facility. But when they switched to own river's suppliers, the anti-corrosion wasn't added and caused lead in the pipes to flake off/absorb into the water. It takes years to build up the protective layer that retains lead in the pipes. Unsure how long it takes to decay, but I guess Flint was a real-world study of that since it usually isn't removed once added. It's not a 100% regular thing. My hometown just started adding it in 2018: https://www.hamilton.ca/home-property-and-development/water-sewer/corrosion-control https://www.hamilton.ca/home-property-and-development/water-...
- kodah 6y ago
  I think that's a matter of perspective that you're arguing, and a bit pedantic to say the least. People that work in infrastructure will tell you that replacing and repairing infrastructure is an impossibly imbalanced equation, it simply degrades too fast. So, lead pipes are to be expected, among other things. Lead pipes are just fine as long as there's chemicals in the water that build up a rusty layer. Flint, when it switched plants, did not use the chemical they had in their previous plant. I can't remember if it was because a machine was broken or if it was more direct cost cutting, but both come down to cost.
  - Scoundreller 6y ago