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> or is this another aspect of the US's unexpectedly high violence That's a steep drop of context. The US doesn't have abnormally high violence overall, as you

> or is this another aspect of the US's unexpectedly high violence That's a steep drop of context. The US doesn't have abnormally high violence overall, as your blanket statement would imply. The US has a lower rate of violent crime than Europe does and that has been consistently true for 50 years. The US has an unexpectedly high murder rate due to the mass proliferation of easy to get handguns in its inner cities. If you remove that single factor, the US murder rate drops to something comparable to Canada. It's obvious that the murder problem in the US is a handgun problem and the stats always bear that out year after year.

erhk 6y ago
Without any data or published results your comment provides nothing to back its claims.
- Rule35 6y ago
  Funny, it almost sounds like you're blaming your unwillingness to educate yourself on the OP. In a data-free post no less.
  - kergonath 6y ago
    That’s not how logic works, though. If you’re going to make flippant claims, you have to back them up if you want to be taken seriously.
    - Rule35 6y ago
      No, your post clearly lacks cites for your claims because you expect me to go look them up on my own. By your logic that's not logic. The OPs claims were not flippant and are easy to verify. Erhk was being lazy and trying to pin that laziness on the OP. It's the very behavior LMGTFY was invented to expose. Demanding citations for easily checked facts is one of the primary signs of bad-faith arguing.
      - kergonath 6y ago
        I am not even arguing, as there is nothing to argue against. Get numbers and sources and then we can discuss. > Demanding citations for easily checked facts is one of the primary signs of bad-faith arguing. Not providing facts and then expecting people to do it for you is arguing in bad faith. Particularly when it’s trivial to find sources telling that the fact-free opinion is in fact wrong.
- CrLf 6y ago
  This may provide some insight: https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2020 https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2... (The US seems to be ahead of most european countries.)
  - froh 6y ago
    thanks for the link which confirms "ahead of" as in "more crime"
gunsofchic 6y ago
I once visited Chicago, and I had to cross the street when I saw a group of 5 handguns looking at me menacingly.
kergonath 6y ago
> The US has a lower rate of violent crime than Europe does and that has been consistently true for 50 years. For a very specific definition of violent crime, I suppose. In the real world, homicide rates are not even close, regardless of any hand waving about guns. Same for rapes. Crime rates are comparable if you put together robberies, assaults, murders, rapes and jaywalking, it does not mean that the rates of violent crimes are similar.
oblio 6y ago
You're wrong: https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/non-economic-data/worlds-safest-countries-2019 https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/non-economic-data/worlds-s... Heck, Romania is 10 times poorer than the US and it's still safer. And it's not even the safest country in Europe.
- vixen99 6y ago
  True for me. I enjoy walking in the evening and late at night. The only unpleasant encounter I've ever had in Romania was with a bear not a person. Quietly backtracking I got away with it.
EliRivers 6y ago
While I can't speak for Europe as a whole, I do recall that violent crime comparisons twixt the US and the UK fall afoul of not measuring the same crimes. The definition of "violent crime" in the UK covers much more than it does in the US. Here's an old piece about it: https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checking-ben-swann-is-the-uk-really-5-times-more-violent-than-the-us/ https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checki...
pjc50 6y ago
My usual reference, now a little old: https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-country/ https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-co... : http://kieranhealy.org/files/misc/assault-deaths-oecd-ts-all.png http://kieranhealy.org/files/misc/assault-deaths-oecd-ts-all... > If you remove that single factor "If you remove the murders, the US has a low murder rate" isn't helpful. > It's obvious that the murder problem in the US is a handgun problem and the stats always bear that out year after year Well, yes, but this runs into the "this is constitutionally guaranteed and we refuse to even contemplate doing anything about it" problem. But the difference is huge. In the 1980s, Detroit was more lethal than Belfast, with regular bombs going off and troops shooting civilians in the streets.
- captainredbeard 6y ago
  If you remove cities like Detroit from US numbers, it's as safe as the Czech Republic and other Western countries. We don't have a gun violence problem, we have a dangerous cities problem. Poor management of inner city criminals.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    But is US minus Detroit safer than Cz minus Prague, or UK minus London and Manchester? Most murder happens in cities. You can't just handwave the problem away and say it's not really America. The US system of policing seems to be both repressive and ineffective.

erhk 6y ago

Without any data or published results your comment provides nothing to back its claims.

Rule35 6y ago
Funny, it almost sounds like you're blaming your unwillingness to educate yourself on the OP. In a data-free post no less.
- kergonath 6y ago
  That’s not how logic works, though. If you’re going to make flippant claims, you have to back them up if you want to be taken seriously.
  - Rule35 6y ago
    No, your post clearly lacks cites for your claims because you expect me to go look them up on my own. By your logic that's not logic. The OPs claims were not flippant and are easy to verify. Erhk was being lazy and trying to pin that laziness on the OP. It's the very behavior LMGTFY was invented to expose. Demanding citations for easily checked facts is one of the primary signs of bad-faith arguing.
    - kergonath 6y ago
      I am not even arguing, as there is nothing to argue against. Get numbers and sources and then we can discuss. > Demanding citations for easily checked facts is one of the primary signs of bad-faith arguing. Not providing facts and then expecting people to do it for you is arguing in bad faith. Particularly when it’s trivial to find sources telling that the fact-free opinion is in fact wrong.
CrLf 6y ago
This may provide some insight: https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2020 https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2... (The US seems to be ahead of most european countries.)
- froh 6y ago
  thanks for the link which confirms "ahead of" as in "more crime"

gunsofchic 6y ago

I once visited Chicago, and I had to cross the street when I saw a group of 5 handguns looking at me menacingly.

kergonath 6y ago

> The US has a lower rate of violent crime than Europe does and that has been consistently true for 50 years. For a very specific definition of violent crime, I suppose. In the real world, homicide rates are not even close, regardless of any hand waving about guns. Same for rapes. Crime rates are comparable if you put together robberies, assaults, murders, rapes and jaywalking, it does not mean that the rates of violent crimes are similar.

oblio 6y ago

You're wrong: https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/non-economic-data/worlds-safest-countries-2019 https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/non-economic-data/worlds-s... Heck, Romania is 10 times poorer than the US and it's still safer. And it's not even the safest country in Europe.

vixen99 6y ago
True for me. I enjoy walking in the evening and late at night. The only unpleasant encounter I've ever had in Romania was with a bear not a person. Quietly backtracking I got away with it.

EliRivers 6y ago

While I can't speak for Europe as a whole, I do recall that violent crime comparisons twixt the US and the UK fall afoul of not measuring the same crimes. The definition of "violent crime" in the UK covers much more than it does in the US. Here's an old piece about it: https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checking-ben-swann-is-the-uk-really-5-times-more-violent-than-the-us/ https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checki...

pjc50 6y ago

My usual reference, now a little old: https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-country/ https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-co... : http://kieranhealy.org/files/misc/assault-deaths-oecd-ts-all.png http://kieranhealy.org/files/misc/assault-deaths-oecd-ts-all... > If you remove that single factor "If you remove the murders, the US has a low murder rate" isn't helpful. > It's obvious that the murder problem in the US is a handgun problem and the stats always bear that out year after year Well, yes, but this runs into the "this is constitutionally guaranteed and we refuse to even contemplate doing anything about it" problem. But the difference is huge. In the 1980s, Detroit was more lethal than Belfast, with regular bombs going off and troops shooting civilians in the streets.

captainredbeard 6y ago
If you remove cities like Detroit from US numbers, it's as safe as the Czech Republic and other Western countries. We don't have a gun violence problem, we have a dangerous cities problem. Poor management of inner city criminals.
- pjc50 6y ago
  But is US minus Detroit safer than Cz minus Prague, or UK minus London and Manchester? Most murder happens in cities. You can't just handwave the problem away and say it's not really America. The US system of policing seems to be both repressive and ineffective.