6 ms·

> As we are building more infrastructure, we could endeavor to do it in ways that make it easier for cars to drive autonomously, with things like grade separate

> As we are building more infrastructure, we could endeavor to do it in ways that make it easier for cars to drive autonomously, with things like grade separated or other protected bike lanes, clearer signage, and other accommodations that will make things easier and safer for human and ML drivers. So we subsidize the cost of high end luxury items? Let's not. If the technology is ready, a faded stop sign shouldn't make any difference.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
> So we subsidize the cost of high end luxury items? Most of America has no public transit, and cars are mandatory to transit any appreciable distance (Texas, Florida, most of California, for example). That is unlikely to change, and therefore it is reasonable to discuss efforts and resources into improving environment attributes for self driving vehicles of all manufacturers. Roads are already governed by safety and regulatory standards, there is no reason those standards setting bodies should not take input from developers of self driving vehicles. > If the technology is ready, a faded stop sign shouldn't make any difference. Sure, that stop sign (or rather, the roadway segment attributes necessary for the vehicle to infer that a stop is required) should be in OpenStreetMap anyway, which should be used as canonical digital ground truth for roadway intents by automakers, regulators, and roadway O&M alike.
- zelon88 6y ago
  You want everyone to invest in a technology that currently only benefits a select few. Why don't we invest that money in making current technology economical before we go asking single mothers driving clapped out Ford Taurus's to pay for it.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    How else is the technology going to benefit everyone if not for spending resources on it and scaling up? That is the investment. No one donated Tesla the capital required for a $600 million global Supercharger network; their Model S and X buyers ("wealthy consumers of goods") paid for that (out of vehicle margins). Self driving vehicles will be no different, and those capabilities will trickle down as most technology does over time, from only the wealthy paying for it ($10k is a hard pill to swallow for Autopilot) to mass adoption.
    - zelon88 6y ago
      Model S and X buyers are the only ones who can use them. Therefore logic dictates they should be the only ones who pay for them. You conflate scaling Tesla up with scaling the technology up. You want everyone to invest in Tesla so that Tesla can fulfill the promises Tesla made to Tesla owners.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        > Model S and X buyers are the only ones who can use them. Therefore logic dictates they should be the only ones who pay for them. You misunderstand. All Tesla vehicles can use Superchargers. S and X owners paid for the network build out for the 3 and Y buyers (and future S and X owners, which there are less of naturally due to the 3 and Y cannibalizing higher end sales [Musk's statement from an earnings call indicates they continue to sell the S and X as "art pieces" and for "sentimental reasons", backed up by their most recent quarterly report]). Tesla has offered the network to other automakers in a cost sharing agreement, and publicly no one has agreed to that (privately, an automaker is testing interoperability). The point is that someone has to make the investment, those funds have to come from someone's pocket. The US government didn't cough up significant EV charger funds until this year as part of COVID relief [1] (and the goal is for 500k chargers by 2030 ಠ_ಠ). As of February 18, 2021, Tesla operates over 23,277 Superchargers in over 2,564 stations worldwide (an average of 9 chargers per station). Tesla's Supercharger network build was started in 2012 [2]. > You conflate scaling Tesla up with scaling the technology up. You want everyone to invest in Tesla so that Tesla can fulfill the promises Tesla made to Tesla owners. No. I don't care if you invest in Tesla. I'm not invested in Tesla. It won't even matter if you invest in Tesla (institutional money and index funds are driving the show there, retail is just along for the ride). You're arguing that someone should come along and invest in self driving for everyone's mutual benefit, and that entity doesn't exist. Tesla likely won't even be held accountable for false marketing if they can't deliver on FSD other than a class action (for those who were savvy enough to opt out of arbitration) where purchasers receive a trivial payout, attorneys walk away with a chunk of change, but it's a slap on the wrist compared to revenue and enterprise value (which was able to grow faster than the potential penalty cost of Musk's tenuous promises). Not saying it's fair, nor right, just how it's always played out. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/03/31/fact-sheet-the-american-jobs-plan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... (Control-F "EV chargers") [2] https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-motors-launches-revolutionary-supercharger-enabling https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-motors-launches-rev... ("Tesla Motors Launches Revolutionary Supercharger Enabling Convenient Long Distance Driving", September 24th, 2012)
  - spoonjim 6y ago
    Everything newfangled is expensive and thus available only to the wealthy. But if governments never spurred economic investment in new technologies we’d be 100 years behind where we are.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  COVID drilled a huge dent into perceived viability of public transportation. IMHO some form of self driving, self cleaning car shares is the future. At least in the underpopulated countries
  - woah 6y ago
    Are people going to stop going to bars now forever as well?
    - AzzieElbab 6y ago
      Fewer people will be going to bars, just as well. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who goes to bars twice a day, every workday
  - aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 6y ago
    I would pay money for just the “self cleaning” feature set.
    - orthoxerox 6y ago
      Be careful what you wish for, the car will look a self-cleaning public lavatory inside.
  - lenkite 6y ago
    Not sure why you are being downvoted since the facts agree with you. Public transport has taken a massive drop all over the world thanks to Covid. Meanwhile demand for cars has exceeded rapidly.
    - ganafagol 6y ago
      A bit less blak-or-white please. Demand has stayed the same, if anything. There were just restrictions put in place that prevent or at least discourage public transport use. Where I live I know people who use the bus now since their usual car sharing buddy is not driving in to work these days.
- matkoniecz 6y ago
  OSM data is great, but not for things that require 100% reliability and being sure that data is correct and not damaged in some way.
- sorokod 6y ago
  "there is no reason those standards setting bodies should not take input from developers of self driving vehicles" That is pretty weak motivation, can you offer something stronger then "there is no reason" for taking requests from financial interests?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Razengan 6y ago
> So we subsidize the cost of high end luxury items? Like we did for regular cars when they first became a thing?
rcxdude 6y ago
It's worth spending just for the improvement to the average human driver. From what I've heard, policy makers are asking autonomous car designers what would be helpful on the roads, and the first thing they would like is just better road maintenance/design to existing standards (which is something the politicians are keen on because it's too boring to get any positive press).

toomuchtodo 6y ago

> So we subsidize the cost of high end luxury items? Most of America has no public transit, and cars are mandatory to transit any appreciable distance (Texas, Florida, most of California, for example). That is unlikely to change, and therefore it is reasonable to discuss efforts and resources into improving environment attributes for self driving vehicles of all manufacturers. Roads are already governed by safety and regulatory standards, there is no reason those standards setting bodies should not take input from developers of self driving vehicles. > If the technology is ready, a faded stop sign shouldn't make any difference. Sure, that stop sign (or rather, the roadway segment attributes necessary for the vehicle to infer that a stop is required) should be in OpenStreetMap anyway, which should be used as canonical digital ground truth for roadway intents by automakers, regulators, and roadway O&M alike.

zelon88 6y ago
You want everyone to invest in a technology that currently only benefits a select few. Why don't we invest that money in making current technology economical before we go asking single mothers driving clapped out Ford Taurus's to pay for it.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  How else is the technology going to benefit everyone if not for spending resources on it and scaling up? That is the investment. No one donated Tesla the capital required for a $600 million global Supercharger network; their Model S and X buyers ("wealthy consumers of goods") paid for that (out of vehicle margins). Self driving vehicles will be no different, and those capabilities will trickle down as most technology does over time, from only the wealthy paying for it ($10k is a hard pill to swallow for Autopilot) to mass adoption.
  - zelon88 6y ago
    Model S and X buyers are the only ones who can use them. Therefore logic dictates they should be the only ones who pay for them. You conflate scaling Tesla up with scaling the technology up. You want everyone to invest in Tesla so that Tesla can fulfill the promises Tesla made to Tesla owners.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      > Model S and X buyers are the only ones who can use them. Therefore logic dictates they should be the only ones who pay for them. You misunderstand. All Tesla vehicles can use Superchargers. S and X owners paid for the network build out for the 3 and Y buyers (and future S and X owners, which there are less of naturally due to the 3 and Y cannibalizing higher end sales [Musk's statement from an earnings call indicates they continue to sell the S and X as "art pieces" and for "sentimental reasons", backed up by their most recent quarterly report]). Tesla has offered the network to other automakers in a cost sharing agreement, and publicly no one has agreed to that (privately, an automaker is testing interoperability). The point is that someone has to make the investment, those funds have to come from someone's pocket. The US government didn't cough up significant EV charger funds until this year as part of COVID relief [1] (and the goal is for 500k chargers by 2030 ಠ_ಠ). As of February 18, 2021, Tesla operates over 23,277 Superchargers in over 2,564 stations worldwide (an average of 9 chargers per station). Tesla's Supercharger network build was started in 2012 [2]. > You conflate scaling Tesla up with scaling the technology up. You want everyone to invest in Tesla so that Tesla can fulfill the promises Tesla made to Tesla owners. No. I don't care if you invest in Tesla. I'm not invested in Tesla. It won't even matter if you invest in Tesla (institutional money and index funds are driving the show there, retail is just along for the ride). You're arguing that someone should come along and invest in self driving for everyone's mutual benefit, and that entity doesn't exist. Tesla likely won't even be held accountable for false marketing if they can't deliver on FSD other than a class action (for those who were savvy enough to opt out of arbitration) where purchasers receive a trivial payout, attorneys walk away with a chunk of change, but it's a slap on the wrist compared to revenue and enterprise value (which was able to grow faster than the potential penalty cost of Musk's tenuous promises). Not saying it's fair, nor right, just how it's always played out. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/03/31/fact-sheet-the-american-jobs-plan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... (Control-F "EV chargers") [2] https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-motors-launches-revolutionary-supercharger-enabling https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-motors-launches-rev... ("Tesla Motors Launches Revolutionary Supercharger Enabling Convenient Long Distance Driving", September 24th, 2012)
- spoonjim 6y ago
  Everything newfangled is expensive and thus available only to the wealthy. But if governments never spurred economic investment in new technologies we’d be 100 years behind where we are.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
AzzieElbab 6y ago
COVID drilled a huge dent into perceived viability of public transportation. IMHO some form of self driving, self cleaning car shares is the future. At least in the underpopulated countries
- woah 6y ago
  Are people going to stop going to bars now forever as well?
  - AzzieElbab 6y ago
    Fewer people will be going to bars, just as well. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who goes to bars twice a day, every workday
- aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 6y ago
  I would pay money for just the “self cleaning” feature set.
  - orthoxerox 6y ago
    Be careful what you wish for, the car will look a self-cleaning public lavatory inside.
- lenkite 6y ago
  Not sure why you are being downvoted since the facts agree with you. Public transport has taken a massive drop all over the world thanks to Covid. Meanwhile demand for cars has exceeded rapidly.
  - ganafagol 6y ago
    A bit less blak-or-white please. Demand has stayed the same, if anything. There were just restrictions put in place that prevent or at least discourage public transport use. Where I live I know people who use the bus now since their usual car sharing buddy is not driving in to work these days.
matkoniecz 6y ago
OSM data is great, but not for things that require 100% reliability and being sure that data is correct and not damaged in some way.
sorokod 6y ago
"there is no reason those standards setting bodies should not take input from developers of self driving vehicles" That is pretty weak motivation, can you offer something stronger then "there is no reason" for taking requests from financial interests?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Razengan 6y ago

> So we subsidize the cost of high end luxury items? Like we did for regular cars when they first became a thing?

rcxdude 6y ago

It's worth spending just for the improvement to the average human driver. From what I've heard, policy makers are asking autonomous car designers what would be helpful on the roads, and the first thing they would like is just better road maintenance/design to existing standards (which is something the politicians are keen on because it's too boring to get any positive press).