4 ms·

Rather, treating understanding of numbers and statistics as an "attitude" seems to be more of a problem to my eyes. AZ is safe. That's not a statement of opin

Rather, treating understanding of numbers and statistics as an "attitude" seems to be more of a problem to my eyes. AZ is safe. That's not a statement of opinion. Get. Your. Shot.

mrlonglong 6y ago
It's ONE in 600,000. Very safe. I got my AZ shot two weeks ago.
strken 6y ago
It's really not helpful to say "Get. Your. Shot." in a threatening way to someone who's on the fence about getting vaccinated. It's a lot better to try to understand them and walk through their decision, and (gently!) question whether why they've taken the advice of a Facebook post over that of their doctor, or how they're comparing the (huge) risks of COVID infection against the (tiny yet highly publicised) risks of getting vaccinated.
- newacct583 6y ago
  The upthread poster wasn't "on the fence". I read that comment as vaccine denialism, not indecision. And misinformation needs to be called out as such, not coddled.
  - strken 6y ago
    "Denialism" runs the gamut from your undecided aunt who read a Facebook post and can be talked around in five minutes, through to actual strong opposition to vaccines based on years of conspiracy theories, and absolutely none of the people on that gamut respond well to unsourced claims that a vaccine is safe. If you want to feel smug and superior, make dogmatic statements. If you want to change opinions, then you have to treat denialists with respect for their humanity, and separate the person from the opinion.
Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
OK, let's do some numbers and statistics then. Norway has 3.414.711 people under 50, of which 13 have died from COVID since the start of the pandemic. Approximately one per month. Source: https://dc-covid.site.ined.fr/en/data/norway/ https://dc-covid.site.ined.fr/en/data/norway/ Thus, if you're under 50 in Norway, your risk of dying from COVID in the next 3 months is approximately 1 in 1 million. This is even lower for younger age groups (e.g. the population under 40 is 2.691.048 and only 3 have died in the whole pandemic). The estimates on the risk of death from these clots range from 1 in 100.000 to 1 in 1 million. So tell me again, how is it that obvious from the numbers that, say, a Norwegian 25-year-old woman should get her AZ shot instead of waiting for Pfizer/Moderna/J&J to be plentiful in 3 months? Note that I'll probably get AZ myself if offered (for several reasons, notably including that COVID also comes with other risks apart from death, and also I'm from a country with more incidence than Norway). But no, it's not an obvious choice. And indeed, that kind of arrogant attitude does cause distrust. By the way, I would take a 1:10 that you're American because 99% of the arrogant posts lecturing Europeans to take our AZ shots come from there. Of course, it's easy to speak so categorically from a country where you don't even need to make the decision of taking AZ or waiting for a better vaccine. The FDA shields you from that inconvenience by not even bothering to approve it, and your doses will end up being sent to Canada and Mexico. So basically, you don't have to decide to accept or refuse AZ because your institutions have already decided to refuse it (and rightly so, any country would do it if they were swimming in other vaccines... but then let's not pretend that they are all the same).
- newacct583 6y ago
  > The estimates on the risk of death from these clots range from 1 in 100.000 to 1 in 1 million. Cite? That's absolutely not consistent with the 7-fatality (yes, seven) value listed above.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
    The 7 fatalities come from the UK, where the numbers are considerably better than in some other countries. In Norway there have been four deaths of over 50s with less than 200K vaccinations, which is especially bad, in Germany it's somewhere in between. The 1 in 100K estimate comes from the EMA. Here they report it: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56616119 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56616119 "The EMA, which has assessed data from around the world, estimates there is around a one in 100,000 risk of a CVST in people under the age of 60 who have been given the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine" (not the primary source, but it's quite clear that the British national media station would not have a bias against the British vaccine...)

Rather, treating understanding of numbers and statistics as an "attitude" seems to be more of a problem to my eyes. AZ is safe. That's not a statement of opinion. Get. Your. Shot.

mrlonglong 6y ago

It's ONE in 600,000. Very safe. I got my AZ shot two weeks ago.

strken 6y ago

It's really not helpful to say "Get. Your. Shot." in a threatening way to someone who's on the fence about getting vaccinated. It's a lot better to try to understand them and walk through their decision, and (gently!) question whether why they've taken the advice of a Facebook post over that of their doctor, or how they're comparing the (huge) risks of COVID infection against the (tiny yet highly publicised) risks of getting vaccinated.

newacct583 6y ago
The upthread poster wasn't "on the fence". I read that comment as vaccine denialism, not indecision. And misinformation needs to be called out as such, not coddled.
- strken 6y ago
  "Denialism" runs the gamut from your undecided aunt who read a Facebook post and can be talked around in five minutes, through to actual strong opposition to vaccines based on years of conspiracy theories, and absolutely none of the people on that gamut respond well to unsourced claims that a vaccine is safe. If you want to feel smug and superior, make dogmatic statements. If you want to change opinions, then you have to treat denialists with respect for their humanity, and separate the person from the opinion.

Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago

OK, let's do some numbers and statistics then. Norway has 3.414.711 people under 50, of which 13 have died from COVID since the start of the pandemic. Approximately one per month. Source: https://dc-covid.site.ined.fr/en/data/norway/ https://dc-covid.site.ined.fr/en/data/norway/ Thus, if you're under 50 in Norway, your risk of dying from COVID in the next 3 months is approximately 1 in 1 million. This is even lower for younger age groups (e.g. the population under 40 is 2.691.048 and only 3 have died in the whole pandemic). The estimates on the risk of death from these clots range from 1 in 100.000 to 1 in 1 million. So tell me again, how is it that obvious from the numbers that, say, a Norwegian 25-year-old woman should get her AZ shot instead of waiting for Pfizer/Moderna/J&J to be plentiful in 3 months? Note that I'll probably get AZ myself if offered (for several reasons, notably including that COVID also comes with other risks apart from death, and also I'm from a country with more incidence than Norway). But no, it's not an obvious choice. And indeed, that kind of arrogant attitude does cause distrust. By the way, I would take a 1:10 that you're American because 99% of the arrogant posts lecturing Europeans to take our AZ shots come from there. Of course, it's easy to speak so categorically from a country where you don't even need to make the decision of taking AZ or waiting for a better vaccine. The FDA shields you from that inconvenience by not even bothering to approve it, and your doses will end up being sent to Canada and Mexico. So basically, you don't have to decide to accept or refuse AZ because your institutions have already decided to refuse it (and rightly so, any country would do it if they were swimming in other vaccines... but then let's not pretend that they are all the same).

newacct583 6y ago
> The estimates on the risk of death from these clots range from 1 in 100.000 to 1 in 1 million. Cite? That's absolutely not consistent with the 7-fatality (yes, seven) value listed above.
- Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
  The 7 fatalities come from the UK, where the numbers are considerably better than in some other countries. In Norway there have been four deaths of over 50s with less than 200K vaccinations, which is especially bad, in Germany it's somewhere in between. The 1 in 100K estimate comes from the EMA. Here they report it: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56616119 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56616119 "The EMA, which has assessed data from around the world, estimates there is around a one in 100,000 risk of a CVST in people under the age of 60 who have been given the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine" (not the primary source, but it's quite clear that the British national media station would not have a bias against the British vaccine...)