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The differences here are over values not facts. Specific examples aside, the EU buys into the idea that you can harmonize society with the right laws. The Brit

by slibhb 6y ago

The differences here are over values not facts. Specific examples aside, the EU buys into the idea that you can harmonize society with the right laws. The Brits were never going to be okay with that. It's a continental idea and inimical to common law. This is a country where they don't have ids. They passed a law to create ids but then it was repealed and the ids were destroyed. You can read Notes from a Small Island for more about this specifically British attitude. Or Orwell: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/the-lion-and-the-unicorn-socialism-and-the-english-genius/ https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel... Anyway, there are good reasons for not being in the EU. Low voter turnout. Austerity policies (Boris Johnson is part of the conservative movement to the left on economics). The disastrous decision to share a currency (which plenty of economists warned against). But the main reason the EU is going to atrophy over the next 50 years is that European identity is illusory. It's something for well-off cosmopolites. That doesn't make it wrong but most people in these countries are not a part of it, though they might go along when times are good. Moreover, as Hobbes put it, "covenants without swords are but words". Countries are about shared land, shared borders, and a shared duty to defend that land. The kind of people who feel European identity (or consider themselves "citizens of the world") are uncomfortable with this bloody-mindedness (and not for no reason). But nations are martial compacts and, for all of our discomfort with that, they are the best way we have of ensuring rights. The UN and EU have proven ineffective at that. In a crisis (like covid) Europeans will act singly as countries or not at all.

Jonnax 6y ago
So you're saying that it was incompatible British Values that caused the UK media to lie about what the EU was doing. So that list of 100+ lies printed by the UK Press was fine, as it was an effort to manipulate people to have a negative opinion of the EU. Since those good reasons weren't enough to get what the Brexiters wanted?
- slibhb 6y ago
  Clearly lying is not good. I don't have strong opinions about whether the linked list can be accurately described as lies. My strong opinion is that the differences here are about values not facts, and those differences are real.
  - Jonnax 6y ago
    "Pubs, darts – Commission plans to outlaws darts in Pubs, Jun 1993" Ah right. So this isn't a true/false statement. But a statement of values. Thanks for clearing that up
    - slibhb 6y ago
      If you want to go through that list, investigate every claim, and explain how some of them are completely made up, be my guest. I doubt many of them are completely made up. I think most of them are exaggerations based on something. Almost all headlines fit that description. My point is not so much that "no one lies, ever" but that lying is beside the point. The differences that lead people to prefer to leave the EU are not factual, they're questions of values. If you don't see that, fine, but you're missing something.
      - Jonnax 6y ago
        Right. So the EU is not allowed to create a site to inform their ministers to correct these lies. Because the EU have to play by some rules you've made up.
        slibhb 6y ago
        Quote where I said "the EU is not allowed to create a site". Also, quote where I said "there's no reason to want to remain in the EU". The hostility in all of your responses is, um, interesting.
orwin 6y ago
Okay, so for "The disastrous decision to share a currency", it seems that this argument is coming a lot in exchanges i have, and always with the same kind of people: those that either don't know about economy at all (because, let's face it, its not really interesting except for nerds like me), or those at the dunning-Kruger peak in macroeconomy. You should read about ECU and ERM, and research speculative currency attack and how much money it cost England and Norway every year. There was a good reason for the Euro, especially for smaller countries in Europe.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > or those at the dunning-Kruger peak in macroeconomy. There is no DK peak except rhe actual skill peak. DK has people’s self-ssessment of relative skill improving with actual skill, but consistently being pushed toward about the 70th percentile from actual relative performance.
- slibhb 6y ago
  I don't know a lot of economics (though I have opinions of course). I'm referencing economists like Joseph Stiglitz and Paul Krugman. You are free to disagree but referencing "Dunning-Kruger" is just ad-hominem. I can link various things that "you should read" too.
- TMWNN 6y ago
  >Okay, so for "The disastrous decision to share a currency" As slibhb said, feel free to claim that economists like Stiglitz and Krugman are demonstrating the Dunning-Kruger effect when they write that the Euro is a bad idea. The very pro-EU Guardian [speculated in 2013](http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2013/jun/02/britain-euro-what-if-joined http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2013/jun/...) that if Britain had joined the Euro: * The mid-2000s British housing bubble, and its collapse in 2007, would have been even bigger. * Britain would have had to ask the IMF, ECB, and EU for loans. * The Tories would in 2010 have promised a referendum to leave the Euro and won a majority. Labour would have won fewer than 100 seats, and UKIP would have "made spectacular gains". * The anti-Euro side would have won the referendum, and the currency would have collapsed. * "after a deep and painful recession economic recovery began". * "Britain would have destroyed the euro on departure, and would now be on the point of leaving the EU altogether. The idea that Farage might be the next prime minister would be quite credible."

by slibhb 6y ago

Jonnax 6y ago

So you're saying that it was incompatible British Values that caused the UK media to lie about what the EU was doing. So that list of 100+ lies printed by the UK Press was fine, as it was an effort to manipulate people to have a negative opinion of the EU. Since those good reasons weren't enough to get what the Brexiters wanted?

slibhb 6y ago
Clearly lying is not good. I don't have strong opinions about whether the linked list can be accurately described as lies. My strong opinion is that the differences here are about values not facts, and those differences are real.
- Jonnax 6y ago
  "Pubs, darts – Commission plans to outlaws darts in Pubs, Jun 1993" Ah right. So this isn't a true/false statement. But a statement of values. Thanks for clearing that up
  - slibhb 6y ago
    If you want to go through that list, investigate every claim, and explain how some of them are completely made up, be my guest. I doubt many of them are completely made up. I think most of them are exaggerations based on something. Almost all headlines fit that description. My point is not so much that "no one lies, ever" but that lying is beside the point. The differences that lead people to prefer to leave the EU are not factual, they're questions of values. If you don't see that, fine, but you're missing something.
    - Jonnax 6y ago
      Right. So the EU is not allowed to create a site to inform their ministers to correct these lies. Because the EU have to play by some rules you've made up.
      - slibhb 6y ago
        Quote where I said "the EU is not allowed to create a site". Also, quote where I said "there's no reason to want to remain in the EU". The hostility in all of your responses is, um, interesting.

orwin 6y ago

Okay, so for "The disastrous decision to share a currency", it seems that this argument is coming a lot in exchanges i have, and always with the same kind of people: those that either don't know about economy at all (because, let's face it, its not really interesting except for nerds like me), or those at the dunning-Kruger peak in macroeconomy. You should read about ECU and ERM, and research speculative currency attack and how much money it cost England and Norway every year. There was a good reason for the Euro, especially for smaller countries in Europe.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> or those at the dunning-Kruger peak in macroeconomy. There is no DK peak except rhe actual skill peak. DK has people’s self-ssessment of relative skill improving with actual skill, but consistently being pushed toward about the 70th percentile from actual relative performance.
slibhb 6y ago
I don't know a lot of economics (though I have opinions of course). I'm referencing economists like Joseph Stiglitz and Paul Krugman. You are free to disagree but referencing "Dunning-Kruger" is just ad-hominem. I can link various things that "you should read" too.
TMWNN 6y ago
>Okay, so for "The disastrous decision to share a currency" As slibhb said, feel free to claim that economists like Stiglitz and Krugman are demonstrating the Dunning-Kruger effect when they write that the Euro is a bad idea. The very pro-EU Guardian [speculated in 2013](http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2013/jun/02/britain-euro-what-if-joined http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2013/jun/...) that if Britain had joined the Euro: * The mid-2000s British housing bubble, and its collapse in 2007, would have been even bigger. * Britain would have had to ask the IMF, ECB, and EU for loans. * The Tories would in 2010 have promised a referendum to leave the Euro and won a majority. Labour would have won fewer than 100 seats, and UKIP would have "made spectacular gains". * The anti-Euro side would have won the referendum, and the currency would have collapsed. * "after a deep and painful recession economic recovery began". * "Britain would have destroyed the euro on departure, and would now be on the point of leaving the EU altogether. The idea that Farage might be the next prime minister would be quite credible."