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Not only this but ancient agriculture supported fewer humans with a lot more work. This romanticized idea of growing food the old fashioned way and forget today

Not only this but ancient agriculture supported fewer humans with a lot more work. This romanticized idea of growing food the old fashioned way and forget today’s busy way of life omits the part of doing nothing but growing food from not figuratively dawn to dusk. I spent some time in my youth farming the old fashioned way: hand tools only, carrying water from somewhere else, removing pests and weeds by hand. It is a terribly labor intensive process that managed to supplement my family’s food needs but not eliminate the need for purchased food by any means. We managed to do literally nothing else. We certainly couldn’t have fed anyone else since we didn’t have any kind of excess. I don’t like industrial food. It is killing the planet abs pretty quickly. But it’s not doing it because farmers are evil. It’s because it the cheapest way to produce food. If we as a society want to go to a place where food costs 10-100x as much while availability goes down by about the same amount, let’s figure out how we will prevent mass starvation and population decline. But if the GP expects that farmers will switch to compost abs hand tools, they should probably expect to pay a lot more for a lot less food.

Scoundreller 6y ago
I’d argue that the average western person’s food budget comes from: 1) desire to eat « fresh » foods out-of-season (greenhouses, air transport, lengthy controlled-atmosphere storage) 2) feeding food to food and getting 1/10th back (feeding corn to a cow) 3) desire for labour-intensive foods. Potatoes can be straightforward harvested from a field by a machine. Alfalfa (or anything in a greenhouse) cannot. I think the biggest barrier to going back to « the old way » is not having manufactured fertilizer. Nobody cares if the water came by pump instead of by hand. But I supposed over-watered at the end = more water in the product instead of useful matter.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Why stop there? Nutritional algae genetically engineered to balance macro and micro nutrients with any artificial flavor and texture surely is cheaper. Grow it in a jar at home.
  - Scoundreller 6y ago
    At the end of the day, an algae farm is solar powered and much lower yield than anything else you could grow with the same energy input.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Alfalfa is baled by machines, no?
  - Scoundreller 6y ago
    It’s asparagus I was thinking about. Was an issue in Germany: https://m.dw.com/en/seasonal-workers-flock-to-germany-for-asparagus-harvest-under-covid-restrictions/a-56919559 https://m.dw.com/en/seasonal-workers-flock-to-germany-for-as... As with many labour-intensive crops, people want to eat it, but not do the work involved themselves.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      As with many labour-intensive crops, people want to eat it, but not do the work involved themselves. Ah, yes. The best asparagus is hand-picked the day of consumption, and it would be ideal if picked by the people eating it. I grew up in an area that used to have asparagus fields, so asparagus grew "wild" along the fences and ditchbanks. I would occasionally help my parents cut the day's wild asparagus for dinner. I hated it as a kid, but really grew to appreciate how good fresh asparagus is when compared to what has to be mass produced and shipped, because, as you say, nobody wants to do the labor.
    - zokier 6y ago
      I wonder how much improved robotics will change the picture. Labor intensive practices and crops might become more feasible if we can get robots to do that labor. Afaik agriculture is already moving in that direction with very fancy advanced tractors etc (I don't actually know anything about ag). One issue that I foresee is that if something needs a very specialized robot, then the market might not be big enough to warrant the development cost. Undoubtedly it makes lot of sense to automate something like wheat or whatnot bulk crop because there is just tons of that around. But asparagus or something might be too niche?

Scoundreller 6y ago

I’d argue that the average western person’s food budget comes from: 1) desire to eat « fresh » foods out-of-season (greenhouses, air transport, lengthy controlled-atmosphere storage) 2) feeding food to food and getting 1/10th back (feeding corn to a cow) 3) desire for labour-intensive foods. Potatoes can be straightforward harvested from a field by a machine. Alfalfa (or anything in a greenhouse) cannot. I think the biggest barrier to going back to « the old way » is not having manufactured fertilizer. Nobody cares if the water came by pump instead of by hand. But I supposed over-watered at the end = more water in the product instead of useful matter.

IgorPartola 6y ago
Why stop there? Nutritional algae genetically engineered to balance macro and micro nutrients with any artificial flavor and texture surely is cheaper. Grow it in a jar at home.
- Scoundreller 6y ago
  At the end of the day, an algae farm is solar powered and much lower yield than anything else you could grow with the same energy input.
nitrogen 6y ago
Alfalfa is baled by machines, no?
- Scoundreller 6y ago
  It’s asparagus I was thinking about. Was an issue in Germany: https://m.dw.com/en/seasonal-workers-flock-to-germany-for-asparagus-harvest-under-covid-restrictions/a-56919559 https://m.dw.com/en/seasonal-workers-flock-to-germany-for-as... As with many labour-intensive crops, people want to eat it, but not do the work involved themselves.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    As with many labour-intensive crops, people want to eat it, but not do the work involved themselves. Ah, yes. The best asparagus is hand-picked the day of consumption, and it would be ideal if picked by the people eating it. I grew up in an area that used to have asparagus fields, so asparagus grew "wild" along the fences and ditchbanks. I would occasionally help my parents cut the day's wild asparagus for dinner. I hated it as a kid, but really grew to appreciate how good fresh asparagus is when compared to what has to be mass produced and shipped, because, as you say, nobody wants to do the labor.
  - zokier 6y ago
    I wonder how much improved robotics will change the picture. Labor intensive practices and crops might become more feasible if we can get robots to do that labor. Afaik agriculture is already moving in that direction with very fancy advanced tractors etc (I don't actually know anything about ag). One issue that I foresee is that if something needs a very specialized robot, then the market might not be big enough to warrant the development cost. Undoubtedly it makes lot of sense to automate something like wheat or whatnot bulk crop because there is just tons of that around. But asparagus or something might be too niche?