4 ms·

I don't have any Apple products but I think they have a reputation of valuing quality.

by neolog 6y ago

linguae 6y ago
I agree. The Mac ecosystem has long valued quality, especially when it comes to UI/UX. One of my favorite proprietary software companies is The Omni Group, which has made a lot of very well-done software tools for the Mac, such as OmniGraffle. The company's adherence to Apple's UI guidelines is strict, and its products are wonderful to use. Apple itself has also made excellent software (I'm a longtime macOS user), though I feel that its UI/UX perfectionism has slipped in recent years.
- vagrantJin 6y ago
  > Apple itself has also made excellent software (I'm a longtime macOS user), Then how would you know how good or bad Apples software UI/UX is if you have only one frame of reference? It's good or bad compared to what? I don't think you can easily make that claim.
  - linguae 6y ago
    I’m not exclusively a Mac user. In the past 30 years I’ve also used MS-DOS, every version of Windows since 95 (except for Me and server-based versions like 2003 and 2008), various Linux desktops, Android, ChromeOS, and iOS. I’ve even played around with NeXTstep, Haiku, Pharo, and Plan 9. The classic Mac OS and pre-Big Sur macOS were the best environments I’ve used from a UI/UX perspective, with Windows 95/98/NT/2000 being worthy runners up.
    - neolog 6y ago
      How's Pharo in practice? It seems really cool in demos.
    - vagrantJin 6y ago
      This answer is how you should preface your argument. Gives people like me context. Saying Im long time mac user in a vacuum misleads small minds like mine
mimixco 6y ago
Their UI quality is more mystique than reality. iTunes was a particular abomination among many. Not only did it have a terrible interface which conformed with nobody's standards and looked nothing like any other Mac app, it also had a propensity for eating your music, especially music which was yours and acquired outside the Apple store. Hardly a quality program. Apple apps are still famous for focusing more on keeping you in their walled garden than on making the best UI for the user.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > iTunes was a particular abomination among many It didn't have to be really good: It was better than any other digital music store out there!
  - loup-vaillant 6y ago
    Software that does this: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250315803 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250315803 is likely worse than nothing at all.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  Assuming you mean Apple Music (iTunes was an okay MP3 player/ripper, but is dead), I consider it the exception that proves the rule. Enjoy the schadenfreude of this recent Apple Music for macOS review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE8ZikfrpFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE8ZikfrpFU
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - mimixco 6y ago
    No, I meant iTunes. Their willingness to make that was a harbinger of Bad Things to Come, ala the review you linked. Apple had some good UI ideas in the past. For a fleeting moment, they were the best. But eons ago they sold out the user to sell him a lifestyle/subscription system built around keeping people from leaving. This vastly compromised their UI designs to the point of making them frustrating and sometimes futile.
rektide 6y ago
I'm not going to weigh in on Apple but raising one of the most monolithic, insular, biggest capitalization companies on the planet to talk about software craftsmanship feels so so so so far from the point, from the question of software craftsmanship in the world. Icd rather not start the discussion by looking at extremes.
brutal_chaos_ 6y ago
Reputation, yes, however this is no longer reality IMHO. Think of all those posts about how the keyboard sucks on macbooks, think of the posts complaining about Apple's quality in general over the past couple years. It may be a somewhat recent change, but Apple does not produce good quality any more. Apple is useful, but a bit janky these days.
- blacktriangle 6y ago
  Agreed about their software quality, but their laptops are still the best. The keyboard was an very real issue for awhile, but now they seem sorted out and are one of the best keyboards out there. Not to mention I cannot find a non-Apple laptop with the quality of screen and especially touchpad. It's a shame too because I am trying to move further out of the Apple ecosystem, but I can not find an acceptable laptop.

I don't have any Apple products but I think they have a reputation of valuing quality.

by neolog 6y ago

I don't have any Apple products but I think they have a reputation of valuing quality.

I agree. The Mac ecosystem has long valued quality, especially when it comes to UI/UX. One of my favorite proprietary software companies is The Omni Group, which has made a lot of very well-done software tools for the Mac, such as OmniGraffle. The company's adherence to Apple's UI guidelines is strict, and its products are wonderful to use. Apple itself has also made excellent software (I'm a longtime macOS user), though I feel that its UI/UX perfectionism has slipped in recent years.

vagrantJin 6y ago
> Apple itself has also made excellent software (I'm a longtime macOS user), Then how would you know how good or bad Apples software UI/UX is if you have only one frame of reference? It's good or bad compared to what? I don't think you can easily make that claim.
- linguae 6y ago
  I’m not exclusively a Mac user. In the past 30 years I’ve also used MS-DOS, every version of Windows since 95 (except for Me and server-based versions like 2003 and 2008), various Linux desktops, Android, ChromeOS, and iOS. I’ve even played around with NeXTstep, Haiku, Pharo, and Plan 9. The classic Mac OS and pre-Big Sur macOS were the best environments I’ve used from a UI/UX perspective, with Windows 95/98/NT/2000 being worthy runners up.
  - neolog 6y ago
    How's Pharo in practice? It seems really cool in demos.
  - vagrantJin 6y ago
    This answer is how you should preface your argument. Gives people like me context. Saying Im long time mac user in a vacuum misleads small minds like mine

mimixco 6y ago

Their UI quality is more mystique than reality. iTunes was a particular abomination among many. Not only did it have a terrible interface which conformed with nobody's standards and looked nothing like any other Mac app, it also had a propensity for eating your music, especially music which was yours and acquired outside the Apple store. Hardly a quality program. Apple apps are still famous for focusing more on keeping you in their walled garden than on making the best UI for the user.

908B64B197 6y ago
> iTunes was a particular abomination among many It didn't have to be really good: It was better than any other digital music store out there!
- loup-vaillant 6y ago
  Software that does this: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250315803 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250315803 is likely worse than nothing at all.
CharlesW 6y ago
Assuming you mean Apple Music (iTunes was an okay MP3 player/ripper, but is dead), I consider it the exception that proves the rule. Enjoy the schadenfreude of this recent Apple Music for macOS review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE8ZikfrpFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE8ZikfrpFU
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mimixco 6y ago
  No, I meant iTunes. Their willingness to make that was a harbinger of Bad Things to Come, ala the review you linked. Apple had some good UI ideas in the past. For a fleeting moment, they were the best. But eons ago they sold out the user to sell him a lifestyle/subscription system built around keeping people from leaving. This vastly compromised their UI designs to the point of making them frustrating and sometimes futile.

rektide 6y ago

I'm not going to weigh in on Apple but raising one of the most monolithic, insular, biggest capitalization companies on the planet to talk about software craftsmanship feels so so so so far from the point, from the question of software craftsmanship in the world. Icd rather not start the discussion by looking at extremes.

brutal_chaos_ 6y ago

Reputation, yes, however this is no longer reality IMHO. Think of all those posts about how the keyboard sucks on macbooks, think of the posts complaining about Apple's quality in general over the past couple years. It may be a somewhat recent change, but Apple does not produce good quality any more. Apple is useful, but a bit janky these days.

blacktriangle 6y ago
Agreed about their software quality, but their laptops are still the best. The keyboard was an very real issue for awhile, but now they seem sorted out and are one of the best keyboards out there. Not to mention I cannot find a non-Apple laptop with the quality of screen and especially touchpad. It's a shame too because I am trying to move further out of the Apple ecosystem, but I can not find an acceptable laptop.