24 ms·

Loot boxes linked to problem gambling in new research

160 points by ComodoHacker 6y ago

j4yav 6y ago
> A spokesman for Ukie, the national games industry body, said that game companies had "already taken action" on the issue. Ah, well I’m sure it’s all just fine then.
dalu 6y ago
Cookie Wall, unreadable
- smcleod 6y ago
  Seems to work fine on iOS in Australia, where are you located?
viraptor 6y ago
> Among the authors' recommendations were that any regulation has extremely precise definitions to avoid any possible workarounds I find this surprising - shouldn't it go the other way? The more strictly defined your law is, the more space it creates for "tweak just this bit to technically comply". More vague definitions are closer to "you know what we meant" position.
- Ensorceled 6y ago
  In context, they mean the law should target any gambling mechanic as opposed to banning “loot boxes”. Otherwise the gambling mechanic will come back with another mechanism, say a lucky companion that increases your chances of finding a pot of gold at the end of each rainbow.
  - BuyMyBitcoins 6y ago
    This is already present in Pokémon Go with egg incubators, shiny Pokémon, and raids. You’re not directly buying rare Pokémon, but the tools to increase your chances of getting them.
- AlexanderDhoore 6y ago
  As I understand it the law in Anglo Saxon countries is closer to the "precise definitions" system, while European Napoleonic Code law is closer to "you know what we mean". In the US you must follow the letter of the law. In France you must follow the spirit of the law. (I'm no expert. So please tell me if this isn't correct.)
  - corty 6y ago
    It depends on the area of the law and the field of application. E.g. criminal law and stuff that is meant to cut into civil liberties is very precise and letter-of-the-law style. Any criminal act needs to be defined in the law, you-know-what-we-mean isn't acceptable there. On the other hand consumer-protection, environmental regulations and stuff like that is interpreted more in a you-know-what-we-mean-style. Of course there are areas where both styles overlap.
- esturk 6y ago
  Exactly, it should be a clear cut age limit, (say 18/21), to participate like gambling.
disgruntled101 6y ago
Lootboxes were the beginning of the end for the gaming industry. All the visionaries have moved on from triple A games and now its just by the numbers cookie cutter formula games with different underhanded tactics to extract as much money as possible from victims.
- andybak 6y ago
  Either you have a very narrow definition of triple A or you're somewhat overstating the problem. I'm not saying the problem isn't bad but "all AAA games are cookie cutter money extractors" seems somewhat of an exaggeration.
  - tarboreus 6y ago
    The most convincing way to refute is a counterexample.
    - andybak 6y ago
      Maybe. But I suspect it would probably descend into goal-post moving or quibbling about definitions. It's doesn't feel worth the amount of legalistic laying down of rules that it would require to be a fruitful debate.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- yawnxyz 6y ago
  I'd argue this was only the end of the AAA industry, as they all shifted towards monetization, but has catalyzed the growth of indie games — which are more expressive and artistic than ever before. Games like Outer Wilds removed any notion for what a game could look and feel and play like, for me
dalbasal 6y ago
I think behavioural research like this has value. But, once we're speaking in terms of nudges & clustering... I feel the terms are ambiguous for scientific language. That is... This probably is useful to the gambling regulator, addiction counselors and such, especially if similar results are found in similar studies. OTOH, they may not hold true in a different country, or 7 years from now, etc. Conversely... I wouldn't be surprised to find many gambling ads surrounding loot box videos on youtube. The orthodox scientific approach is to seek generalities. Any clustering of loot box consumption & problem gambling exists on the plane of generalities that the UKGC or addiction charity operate in. It's an awkward place for science though. Academic pathologies notwithstanding, replication means something different in behavioural sciences... Either that or behavioural science has to be confined to a fairly small realm. Ultimately, what facebook do with their optimization algorithms (or any startup a/b testing) is similar to what gambleaware do. Companies have less need for formal publishing than NGOs, GOs and such. They need a way of informing decisions that convinces the boss, not the world. Not sure where I'm going with this.
cyberlurker 6y ago
I’ve seen relatively low income people drop hundreds of dollars a day on loot boxes in games like CS:GO. Until I saw it myself I couldn’t understand how these companies were making money. I’ve also seen accounts with thousands of dollars worth of digital items. I don’t want to police behavior too much, but I wish there was some transparency for those people to see how much money they’ve put in to get to that point. I assume they must have put in roughly 5x what they own.
- chapium 6y ago
  Its not your place to police their behavior because they are adults, not children.
  - Mirioron 6y ago
    Here's what I don't understand: where do children get their money from to compulsively spend on lootboxes?
    - leroman 6y ago
      Unsuspecting parents that are not technically inclined enough to block it in advance, happened to my sister.
  - socon 6y ago
    Actually, since it creates destructive externalities, it is my place.
    - throwaway98797 6y ago
      and its my place to make sure people like you know their place.
      - socon 6y ago
        pick: Stop regulating externalities, including environmental regulations, civil rights regulations, etc Regulate externalities, including socially corrosive behavior like gambling, alcohol, excessive drug use, pornography, etc. It’s incoherent to regulate the ones you dislike and pretend the ones you like have no externalities.
salamandersauce 6y ago
While loot boxes are pretty scummy what is this going to mean for CCGs like Pokemon and Magic that essentially sell loot boxes only in physical form? Or baseball cards? Trading cards in random packs have been a thing sold to children for 40+ years now.
- spinach 6y ago
  Those are at least finite, limited by production and stock. Digital items can be nearly infinite.
  - mycologos 6y ago
    "Finite" doesn't seem like a meaningful distinction here, if you're a kid at the limits of "production and stock" buying trading cards, you probably have a problem already?
- ljm 6y ago
  Those can at least hold value over time as you're buying something tangible that can be traded or sold. And I don't get the feeling that going to the local newsagent and buying a pack with your pocket money sets you up for the same kind of addiction that microtransactions and loot boxes can. I don't really think that they're equivalent. If you were to make a Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh game that encouraged you to buy digital versions of those packs to make any progress in the game, then I think there would be a better comparison. The fact that those are online-only means that the house can essentially rig the game on the fly and engage in many more unscrupulous practices to keep you hooked. Made all the more easy by having a payment method directly linked. It doesn't mean that physical CCGs have no addictive properties, of course.
  - akersten 6y ago
    > Those can at least hold value over time as you're buying something tangible that can be traded or sold. Ironically, that makes TCG even more like gambling, in contrast to loot boxes which do not provide a cash-value payout.
WORMS_EAT_WORMS 6y ago
In other news, water is also wet! But in all seriousness, what these companies have done is take gambling to a newer, worst level. It’s just packaged different, but I’m not really opposed to it unless with minors. A more interesting story is the shifting market. Casino-gaming and sports betting is basically stagnant on innovation and growth because of regulation — trapped to bubble cities or locations — while tech companies are allowed to slap a cute UI on basically the same thing and run wild unregulated anywhere in the world via the Internet. Does anyone know of any casino-gaming companies innovating in this space like tech? Would be fun to walk into a casino and have it be a real world game experience.
- rini17 6y ago
  Maybe it can't really be improved. Do their clientele really want improved roulette or slots? Or even something completely different/complicated like a RPG? I doubt that.
  - sneak 6y ago
    There are people who really, really love the video slots that were designed in the 80s for CRTs. They've been upgraded and ported to new platforms and now run on LCDs, but they don't dare change the game or graphics because there are total diehards that are into the specifics just the way they are.
- wpietri 6y ago
  > Does anyone know of any casino-gaming companies innovating in this space like tech? A while back I was in Vegas. I don't gamble but some friends did, so I spent hours wandering the casino floors. With my product hat on, I could see so much to improve in the computer-driven games like slot machines. So many ideas for making things more fun. What stopped me was watching faces. Most people on casino floors are not having fun. They looked miserable, desperate, compelled. I wasn't looking at play, but addiction. That's not something I wanted to make more of.
  - acomjean 6y ago
intricatedetail 6y ago
When they are going to tackle dopamine addiction from sites like Instagram or Facebook and how much productivity the country loses to that? Not to mention other health risks and problems. All that compounded by paltry taxes paid by these platforms further sucking energy out of everyone.
akersten 6y ago
I don't like loot boxes. But I'm not egotistical enough to say that just because I don't like something, it should be banned. This is the same moral panic that would have made arcades and baseball cards illegal. Those both follow the model of "put money in, maybe you'll get a reward." Loot boxes are the 21st century innovation of that mechanic, and if you're going to make an argument about "flashing lights and rigged games enticing young minds" then you better be prepared to argue that Dave & Busters should be shut down too, because that has all of the fanfare and phycological reward structure of loot boxes, plus physical sensations and sensory overload, plus cash value payouts, and yet the kids are alright.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  Considering policies that prevent someone from enriching themselves from the ruin of others isn’t just based on “not liking it.” It’s a fundamental decision about the ethics of the society that we want. Basically everyone agrees with that which is why the question is over how much enrichment should we allow from how much ruin.
  - sneak 6y ago
    The fact that "the ruin of others" is entirely consensual means that it is indeed based just on "not liking it". No victim, no crime.
    - shkkmo 6y ago
      Go spend some time with people who have had "consensual" addiction ruin their lives and tell me there is no victim again. Thus doesn't mean you have to make addictive things illegal, but it does mean that you should investigate mitigation strategies and regulate the industry to prevent deliberate exploitation of these vulnerable people.
      - sneak 6y ago
        I've spent a lot of time with addicts who have chosen to stop, and a lot of time with addicts who have chosen to continue. To insinuate that the addict has no control or isn't actively making a choice is to dismiss the large percentage of addicts who decide the other way and stop. There is no victim when someone chooses to harm themselves, any more than there is a victim when someone chooses to better themselves.
acomjean 6y ago
Back I the day I played “ultima 3” . In the game as you explore and defeat foes and monsters you find chests with random stuff (free!). But about 10% or so had traps which would injure or poison a member or your party. Perhaps I learned a valuable lesson..
- ilamont 6y ago
  Doesn't Fallout have booby traps on some locked chests or computer terminals?
NicoJuicy 6y ago
Since loot boxes are not allowed in Belgium. I sold a couple of them and got >50€ ( in relativity out how much I earned with a online game, that's 100%) That's quite a lot of money for something useless. Even the steam market has some stock characteristics. https://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/730/AWP%20%7C%20Asiimov%20(Field-Tested) https://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/730/AWP%20%7C%20A...
yawnxyz 6y ago
loot boxes are designed / deconstructed gambling devices... but also, we see "loot box" design in loads of regular companies too, like when you buy plane tickets or in services where you literally open up a box e.g. Blue Apron
- Monotonic 6y ago
  Those are very different things. The whole point behind loot boxes is that you never know what you're going to get, and it might be quite rare/valuable. With both Blue Apron like boxes and airplane tickets you know and select exactly what you're going to get.
  - yawnxyz 6y ago
    I think with airplane tickets the costs can be quite variable, but you're right it doesn't make you want to buy more boxes. With Blue Apron, the quality of ingredients always ends up shifting... some weeks were terrible, and it was always like "oh, maybe next week's box will be better?" In the end, it always ended up not being worth the price of subscription. I think sometimes they'd skimp on the cost/quality of a box, and then lead you to think that staying subscribed for the next week would be worth it. Not completely analogous to loot boxes, but I think in both cases the design is still influenced by variable rewards systems, just not as obvious as loot boxes.
    - vulcan01 6y ago
      > it always ended up not being worth the price of subscription. I mean, this is a given, right? They can't make money unless the price of the contents + shipping is less than what they charge you. Although, this isn't obvious at sign up.
diimdeep 6y ago
IMHO all these free to play MOBA games designed like a crack and feel like TNG episode[0]. Think about what these companies hypothetically could do with data they have on players, combined with access to voice from voice chat they can generate psychological profiles, and easily manipulate people mood by generating different loot or putting certain kinds of people in team together, you could run entire social experiments with 15min iteration time. (typical match length, while thousands matches happen in the parallel) I am not saying they do that. But from personal experience in these games I feel that matchmaking is somewhat resembles Conditioning[1] in the way that they put you in teams, 5x losing, 1x winning, reinforcing your addiction to game. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Operant_conditioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Operant_conditio...
- nightowl_games 6y ago
  As someone who has worked on a game with loot boxes and analytics and all that, you are definitely underestimating the cost of doing that. Only the mega companies in the world could do that, and they aren't in gaming. The reality is is that the whales are basically subsidizing the 99% free players. It's sad, but free to play and wealth inequality has created this system. The game developers are trying to enable rich people to part with the cash that they are comfortable spending on leisure. It has a nasty side effect of baiting people who can't afford it to spend too much.
  - Avshalom 6y ago
    The game developers are trying to enable people to part with the cash. That's it. Baiting people in to spending too much (which means people can't afford it, that's why it's too much) is the intended effect. It's a couple centuries to late to be pretending that it's just some tragic oopsie
    - nightowl_games 6y ago
      It's like this because if you put a price on the box then no one buys it, and on Android it gets heavily pirated (100:1 pirates to purchasers). I have been trying my whole career to maintain artistic dignity in mobile gaming, but you gotta realise why and how this has happened. Apple arcade is trying to help.
mmacvicarprett 6y ago
"limited time offers and special deals", like literally any company selling something out there. "The report said that many games use a "psychological nudge" to encourage people to buy loot boxes - such as the fear of missing out on limited-time items or special deals"
grawprog 6y ago
There's one mobile game I play semi-regularly. It's a Moba style game riddled with gacha style events and gambling and such for heroes and skins. They regularly have these roulette style events which usually have the brand new shiny skin of the moment as a prize among a bunch of other random prizes. Typically, they'll give you a couple free spins, usually after completing some in game tasks, you'll inevitably win the worst of the prizes, leaving a bunch more crap, and the one good prize, only now, the cost has jumped to like a real dollar(in digital diamonds of course) a spin and increases in cost with each spin. The games are rigged so that the good prize is always the last one you'll win, pretty much every time. I remember one time, when there was a particularly fancy shiny new skin, I used up the free spins, checked out the rules to see how much it would have cost me to keep going until I got the shiny skin for sure... It was going to be over $50...for an item that literally does nothing but change your appearance. The thing is, I ended up seeing not a small amount of people already playing with the skin on the first day of the event...as in they just pumped a bunch of money into the game immediately without really thinking about it. It's constant though. Last time I played it they had 3 similar roulette events going on at once that would have cost over $100 to win them all. Then there's the amount of people on there who seem like they're kids who've obviously been playing the gacha shit and spending a bunch of money on these things. Hell, that game even teaches kids about leasing. They sometimes have an 'event' where you can pay a small amount of diamonds(real money) every day for a month or so for the new shiny skin and as long as you play using it every day for the lease period, you get to keep it...again it works out to cost almost twice as much as just going to the in game shop and just buying a skin...but people seem to do it. I probably went off on a bit of a ramble about this, but that game's my only real experience with these modern day lootbox gambling style things and I still find it unbelievable that it's so blatantly scammy. It doesn't lie about it either. Every event explains in the rules, you're probably going to lose a bunch of money and you're going to have to basically win everything. But these events must be popular, they happen constantly and I always see other players who've clearly taken part.
gverrilla 6y ago
There was a very serious situation involving children and gambling and popular streamers on counter-strike global offensive. It was a scandal, but it could have been way bigger.
BlueTemplar 6y ago
I am Duke's complete lack of surprise.
gammarator 6y ago
The book “Addiction by Design: Machine Gambling in Las Vegas” is a scholarly work covering related topics. https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/addiction-by-design https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/ad...
hiccuphippo 6y ago
This reminds me of the time the Warframe developers inadvertently created a gambling mechanism and removed it once they noticed it. Sadly this is the exception rather than the rule. https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/03/warframe-removed-a-microtransaction-because-a-player-used-it-too-much/ https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/03/warframe-removed-a-microtr...

160 points by ComodoHacker 6y ago

> A spokesman for Ukie, the national games industry body, said that game companies had "already taken action" on the issue. Ah, well I’m sure it’s all just fine then.

dalu 6y ago

Cookie Wall, unreadable

smcleod 6y ago
Seems to work fine on iOS in Australia, where are you located?

viraptor 6y ago

> Among the authors' recommendations were that any regulation has extremely precise definitions to avoid any possible workarounds I find this surprising - shouldn't it go the other way? The more strictly defined your law is, the more space it creates for "tweak just this bit to technically comply". More vague definitions are closer to "you know what we meant" position.

Ensorceled 6y ago
In context, they mean the law should target any gambling mechanic as opposed to banning “loot boxes”. Otherwise the gambling mechanic will come back with another mechanism, say a lucky companion that increases your chances of finding a pot of gold at the end of each rainbow.
- BuyMyBitcoins 6y ago
  This is already present in Pokémon Go with egg incubators, shiny Pokémon, and raids. You’re not directly buying rare Pokémon, but the tools to increase your chances of getting them.
AlexanderDhoore 6y ago
As I understand it the law in Anglo Saxon countries is closer to the "precise definitions" system, while European Napoleonic Code law is closer to "you know what we mean". In the US you must follow the letter of the law. In France you must follow the spirit of the law. (I'm no expert. So please tell me if this isn't correct.)
- corty 6y ago
  It depends on the area of the law and the field of application. E.g. criminal law and stuff that is meant to cut into civil liberties is very precise and letter-of-the-law style. Any criminal act needs to be defined in the law, you-know-what-we-mean isn't acceptable there. On the other hand consumer-protection, environmental regulations and stuff like that is interpreted more in a you-know-what-we-mean-style. Of course there are areas where both styles overlap.
esturk 6y ago
Exactly, it should be a clear cut age limit, (say 18/21), to participate like gambling.

disgruntled101 6y ago

Lootboxes were the beginning of the end for the gaming industry. All the visionaries have moved on from triple A games and now its just by the numbers cookie cutter formula games with different underhanded tactics to extract as much money as possible from victims.

andybak 6y ago
Either you have a very narrow definition of triple A or you're somewhat overstating the problem. I'm not saying the problem isn't bad but "all AAA games are cookie cutter money extractors" seems somewhat of an exaggeration.
- tarboreus 6y ago
  The most convincing way to refute is a counterexample.
  - andybak 6y ago
    Maybe. But I suspect it would probably descend into goal-post moving or quibbling about definitions. It's doesn't feel worth the amount of legalistic laying down of rules that it would require to be a fruitful debate.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
yawnxyz 6y ago
I'd argue this was only the end of the AAA industry, as they all shifted towards monetization, but has catalyzed the growth of indie games — which are more expressive and artistic than ever before. Games like Outer Wilds removed any notion for what a game could look and feel and play like, for me

dalbasal 6y ago

I think behavioural research like this has value. But, once we're speaking in terms of nudges & clustering... I feel the terms are ambiguous for scientific language. That is... This probably is useful to the gambling regulator, addiction counselors and such, especially if similar results are found in similar studies. OTOH, they may not hold true in a different country, or 7 years from now, etc. Conversely... I wouldn't be surprised to find many gambling ads surrounding loot box videos on youtube. The orthodox scientific approach is to seek generalities. Any clustering of loot box consumption & problem gambling exists on the plane of generalities that the UKGC or addiction charity operate in. It's an awkward place for science though. Academic pathologies notwithstanding, replication means something different in behavioural sciences... Either that or behavioural science has to be confined to a fairly small realm. Ultimately, what facebook do with their optimization algorithms (or any startup a/b testing) is similar to what gambleaware do. Companies have less need for formal publishing than NGOs, GOs and such. They need a way of informing decisions that convinces the boss, not the world. Not sure where I'm going with this.

cyberlurker 6y ago

I’ve seen relatively low income people drop hundreds of dollars a day on loot boxes in games like CS:GO. Until I saw it myself I couldn’t understand how these companies were making money. I’ve also seen accounts with thousands of dollars worth of digital items. I don’t want to police behavior too much, but I wish there was some transparency for those people to see how much money they’ve put in to get to that point. I assume they must have put in roughly 5x what they own.

chapium 6y ago
Its not your place to police their behavior because they are adults, not children.
- Mirioron 6y ago
  Here's what I don't understand: where do children get their money from to compulsively spend on lootboxes?
  - leroman 6y ago
    Unsuspecting parents that are not technically inclined enough to block it in advance, happened to my sister.
- socon 6y ago
  Actually, since it creates destructive externalities, it is my place.
  - throwaway98797 6y ago
    and its my place to make sure people like you know their place.
    - socon 6y ago
      pick: Stop regulating externalities, including environmental regulations, civil rights regulations, etc Regulate externalities, including socially corrosive behavior like gambling, alcohol, excessive drug use, pornography, etc. It’s incoherent to regulate the ones you dislike and pretend the ones you like have no externalities.

salamandersauce 6y ago

While loot boxes are pretty scummy what is this going to mean for CCGs like Pokemon and Magic that essentially sell loot boxes only in physical form? Or baseball cards? Trading cards in random packs have been a thing sold to children for 40+ years now.

spinach 6y ago
Those are at least finite, limited by production and stock. Digital items can be nearly infinite.
- mycologos 6y ago
  "Finite" doesn't seem like a meaningful distinction here, if you're a kid at the limits of "production and stock" buying trading cards, you probably have a problem already?
ljm 6y ago
Those can at least hold value over time as you're buying something tangible that can be traded or sold. And I don't get the feeling that going to the local newsagent and buying a pack with your pocket money sets you up for the same kind of addiction that microtransactions and loot boxes can. I don't really think that they're equivalent. If you were to make a Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh game that encouraged you to buy digital versions of those packs to make any progress in the game, then I think there would be a better comparison. The fact that those are online-only means that the house can essentially rig the game on the fly and engage in many more unscrupulous practices to keep you hooked. Made all the more easy by having a payment method directly linked. It doesn't mean that physical CCGs have no addictive properties, of course.
- akersten 6y ago
  > Those can at least hold value over time as you're buying something tangible that can be traded or sold. Ironically, that makes TCG even more like gambling, in contrast to loot boxes which do not provide a cash-value payout.

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 6y ago

In other news, water is also wet! But in all seriousness, what these companies have done is take gambling to a newer, worst level. It’s just packaged different, but I’m not really opposed to it unless with minors. A more interesting story is the shifting market. Casino-gaming and sports betting is basically stagnant on innovation and growth because of regulation — trapped to bubble cities or locations — while tech companies are allowed to slap a cute UI on basically the same thing and run wild unregulated anywhere in the world via the Internet. Does anyone know of any casino-gaming companies innovating in this space like tech? Would be fun to walk into a casino and have it be a real world game experience.

rini17 6y ago
Maybe it can't really be improved. Do their clientele really want improved roulette or slots? Or even something completely different/complicated like a RPG? I doubt that.
- sneak 6y ago
  There are people who really, really love the video slots that were designed in the 80s for CRTs. They've been upgraded and ported to new platforms and now run on LCDs, but they don't dare change the game or graphics because there are total diehards that are into the specifics just the way they are.
wpietri 6y ago
> Does anyone know of any casino-gaming companies innovating in this space like tech? A while back I was in Vegas. I don't gamble but some friends did, so I spent hours wandering the casino floors. With my product hat on, I could see so much to improve in the computer-driven games like slot machines. So many ideas for making things more fun. What stopped me was watching faces. Most people on casino floors are not having fun. They looked miserable, desperate, compelled. I wasn't looking at play, but addiction. That's not something I wanted to make more of.
- acomjean 6y ago

intricatedetail 6y ago

When they are going to tackle dopamine addiction from sites like Instagram or Facebook and how much productivity the country loses to that? Not to mention other health risks and problems. All that compounded by paltry taxes paid by these platforms further sucking energy out of everyone.

akersten 6y ago

I don't like loot boxes. But I'm not egotistical enough to say that just because I don't like something, it should be banned. This is the same moral panic that would have made arcades and baseball cards illegal. Those both follow the model of "put money in, maybe you'll get a reward." Loot boxes are the 21st century innovation of that mechanic, and if you're going to make an argument about "flashing lights and rigged games enticing young minds" then you better be prepared to argue that Dave & Busters should be shut down too, because that has all of the fanfare and phycological reward structure of loot boxes, plus physical sensations and sensory overload, plus cash value payouts, and yet the kids are alright.

hombre_fatal 6y ago
Considering policies that prevent someone from enriching themselves from the ruin of others isn’t just based on “not liking it.” It’s a fundamental decision about the ethics of the society that we want. Basically everyone agrees with that which is why the question is over how much enrichment should we allow from how much ruin.
- sneak 6y ago
  The fact that "the ruin of others" is entirely consensual means that it is indeed based just on "not liking it". No victim, no crime.
  - shkkmo 6y ago
    Go spend some time with people who have had "consensual" addiction ruin their lives and tell me there is no victim again. Thus doesn't mean you have to make addictive things illegal, but it does mean that you should investigate mitigation strategies and regulate the industry to prevent deliberate exploitation of these vulnerable people.
    - sneak 6y ago
      I've spent a lot of time with addicts who have chosen to stop, and a lot of time with addicts who have chosen to continue. To insinuate that the addict has no control or isn't actively making a choice is to dismiss the large percentage of addicts who decide the other way and stop. There is no victim when someone chooses to harm themselves, any more than there is a victim when someone chooses to better themselves.

acomjean 6y ago

Back I the day I played “ultima 3” . In the game as you explore and defeat foes and monsters you find chests with random stuff (free!). But about 10% or so had traps which would injure or poison a member or your party. Perhaps I learned a valuable lesson..

ilamont 6y ago
Doesn't Fallout have booby traps on some locked chests or computer terminals?

NicoJuicy 6y ago

Since loot boxes are not allowed in Belgium. I sold a couple of them and got >50€ ( in relativity out how much I earned with a online game, that's 100%) That's quite a lot of money for something useless. Even the steam market has some stock characteristics. https://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/730/AWP%20%7C%20Asiimov%20(Field-Tested) https://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/730/AWP%20%7C%20A...

yawnxyz 6y ago

loot boxes are designed / deconstructed gambling devices... but also, we see "loot box" design in loads of regular companies too, like when you buy plane tickets or in services where you literally open up a box e.g. Blue Apron

Monotonic 6y ago
Those are very different things. The whole point behind loot boxes is that you never know what you're going to get, and it might be quite rare/valuable. With both Blue Apron like boxes and airplane tickets you know and select exactly what you're going to get.
- yawnxyz 6y ago
  I think with airplane tickets the costs can be quite variable, but you're right it doesn't make you want to buy more boxes. With Blue Apron, the quality of ingredients always ends up shifting... some weeks were terrible, and it was always like "oh, maybe next week's box will be better?" In the end, it always ended up not being worth the price of subscription. I think sometimes they'd skimp on the cost/quality of a box, and then lead you to think that staying subscribed for the next week would be worth it. Not completely analogous to loot boxes, but I think in both cases the design is still influenced by variable rewards systems, just not as obvious as loot boxes.
  - vulcan01 6y ago
    > it always ended up not being worth the price of subscription. I mean, this is a given, right? They can't make money unless the price of the contents + shipping is less than what they charge you. Although, this isn't obvious at sign up.

diimdeep 6y ago

IMHO all these free to play MOBA games designed like a crack and feel like TNG episode[0]. Think about what these companies hypothetically could do with data they have on players, combined with access to voice from voice chat they can generate psychological profiles, and easily manipulate people mood by generating different loot or putting certain kinds of people in team together, you could run entire social experiments with 15min iteration time. (typical match length, while thousands matches happen in the parallel) I am not saying they do that. But from personal experience in these games I feel that matchmaking is somewhat resembles Conditioning[1] in the way that they put you in teams, 5x losing, 1x winning, reinforcing your addiction to game. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Operant_conditioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Operant_conditio...

nightowl_games 6y ago
As someone who has worked on a game with loot boxes and analytics and all that, you are definitely underestimating the cost of doing that. Only the mega companies in the world could do that, and they aren't in gaming. The reality is is that the whales are basically subsidizing the 99% free players. It's sad, but free to play and wealth inequality has created this system. The game developers are trying to enable rich people to part with the cash that they are comfortable spending on leisure. It has a nasty side effect of baiting people who can't afford it to spend too much.
- Avshalom 6y ago
  The game developers are trying to enable people to part with the cash. That's it. Baiting people in to spending too much (which means people can't afford it, that's why it's too much) is the intended effect. It's a couple centuries to late to be pretending that it's just some tragic oopsie
  - nightowl_games 6y ago
    It's like this because if you put a price on the box then no one buys it, and on Android it gets heavily pirated (100:1 pirates to purchasers). I have been trying my whole career to maintain artistic dignity in mobile gaming, but you gotta realise why and how this has happened. Apple arcade is trying to help.

mmacvicarprett 6y ago

"limited time offers and special deals", like literally any company selling something out there. "The report said that many games use a "psychological nudge" to encourage people to buy loot boxes - such as the fear of missing out on limited-time items or special deals"

grawprog 6y ago

There's one mobile game I play semi-regularly. It's a Moba style game riddled with gacha style events and gambling and such for heroes and skins. They regularly have these roulette style events which usually have the brand new shiny skin of the moment as a prize among a bunch of other random prizes. Typically, they'll give you a couple free spins, usually after completing some in game tasks, you'll inevitably win the worst of the prizes, leaving a bunch more crap, and the one good prize, only now, the cost has jumped to like a real dollar(in digital diamonds of course) a spin and increases in cost with each spin. The games are rigged so that the good prize is always the last one you'll win, pretty much every time. I remember one time, when there was a particularly fancy shiny new skin, I used up the free spins, checked out the rules to see how much it would have cost me to keep going until I got the shiny skin for sure... It was going to be over $50...for an item that literally does nothing but change your appearance. The thing is, I ended up seeing not a small amount of people already playing with the skin on the first day of the event...as in they just pumped a bunch of money into the game immediately without really thinking about it. It's constant though. Last time I played it they had 3 similar roulette events going on at once that would have cost over $100 to win them all. Then there's the amount of people on there who seem like they're kids who've obviously been playing the gacha shit and spending a bunch of money on these things. Hell, that game even teaches kids about leasing. They sometimes have an 'event' where you can pay a small amount of diamonds(real money) every day for a month or so for the new shiny skin and as long as you play using it every day for the lease period, you get to keep it...again it works out to cost almost twice as much as just going to the in game shop and just buying a skin...but people seem to do it. I probably went off on a bit of a ramble about this, but that game's my only real experience with these modern day lootbox gambling style things and I still find it unbelievable that it's so blatantly scammy. It doesn't lie about it either. Every event explains in the rules, you're probably going to lose a bunch of money and you're going to have to basically win everything. But these events must be popular, they happen constantly and I always see other players who've clearly taken part.

gverrilla 6y ago

There was a very serious situation involving children and gambling and popular streamers on counter-strike global offensive. It was a scandal, but it could have been way bigger.

BlueTemplar 6y ago

I am Duke's complete lack of surprise.

gammarator 6y ago

The book “Addiction by Design: Machine Gambling in Las Vegas” is a scholarly work covering related topics. https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/addiction-by-design https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/ad...

hiccuphippo 6y ago

This reminds me of the time the Warframe developers inadvertently created a gambling mechanism and removed it once they noticed it. Sadly this is the exception rather than the rule. https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/03/warframe-removed-a-microtransaction-because-a-player-used-it-too-much/ https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/03/warframe-removed-a-microtr...