6 ms·

So block any trade with nazi-germany? The biggest engineering hub of the world? Who control whole europe? So sanction the USSR? The whole eastern block? What s

So block any trade with nazi-germany? The biggest engineering hub of the world? Who control whole europe? So sanction the USSR? The whole eastern block? What sort of question is this?

hutzlibu 6y ago
A real one. One that is not engaged with history revisionism. Or did china do a holocaust, or start WW3? I don't think so. China is a totalitarian dictatorship, but not really the only one, nor the worst. But they are not Nazis. Apart from that, how about blocking trade with countries, that do attack other countries, based on caught lies and propaganda? And various other black things? How would that help?
- koonsolo 6y ago
  You do know who the founder of the PRC is, right? If not, it's Mao, maybe that name rings a bell. Basically the same when Germany would now be ruled by the Nazi party, and you would claim they didn't really do anything bad.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    Last time I checked, Mao is not in charge anymore. Since a very long time. So anyway, you claim, china is worse, than the nazis regime? I would like to get some evidence of gas chambers then pls. Also, how many wars did communist china started, compared to the US?
    - Supermancho 6y ago
      > how many wars did communist china started, compared to the US? China's very prolific in using soldiers, to kill people, in the national interest. Similarly, the US and China both engage in large scale violence to promote their culture. A difference is that China's actions are performed within their borders (more or less) and are not as highly publicized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_China, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong, etc
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        As a qui gong practicer and mountaineer, I am very well aware of chinas atrocities. But like you said, the US is maybe using soldiers to kill in national interest, too. And ethnic issues? How about black lifes matter? But yes, the very big difference is, that in the US there can be a open discussion about, with potential political implications - while in china state cencorship is build in and the one party rule is not to be questioned.
    - ekianjo 6y ago
      It does not need to be worse than the nazis to be considered bad. What kind of a ridiculous argument is that ?
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        If the argument is, opposing trade-embargo with china means also opposing trade embargo with nazis - then I think it is valid to point out the historic faults with that argument.
    - ekianjo 6y ago
      China was involved in regional conflicts like helping north korea in the korean war, one of the bloodiest wars in recent history. They were also helping the communist party in Vietnam both against the French and the US.
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        And later they were also fighting Vietnam. I never claimed china is nice. I claim trade embargos on countries that are not nice, are not helpful. As there are not many "nice" countries out there. Only a couple of small ones, come to my mind.
    - T-A 6y ago
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Peo...
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        "Murder" by its definition has to have intention in it. Framing "the great leap forward" as murder qualifies as propaganda in my book. It was indeed a horrible, human life neglecting catastrophic event, conducted by fanatic extremists imposing their ideology on others. Or rather a series of it. In effect manslaughter on mass scale - yes. But you cannot compare that in honesty to the holocaust - where with gas chambers the clear intention was to murder an entire race. Such framing is not helping anything, definitely not with communication. And about the list of chinas wars ... did you actually compare that to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_mi... ?
    - koonsolo 6y ago
      > china is worse, than the nazis regime? First of all, either you say China is worse than Germany, or PRC is worse than the Nazi regime. And to answer that question, yes, Mao killed way more people than Hitler. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll#List_of_political_leaders_and_regimes_by_death_toll https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogen...
Veen 6y ago
But would refusing to trade with China improve the life of the average Chinese person? Would it free the economic slaves you're concerned about, or would it force hundreds of millions of people into poverty? What you suggest sounds nice in principle, but it would devastate the Chinese economy and most Western economies too. Sometimes, there is no good choice, no principled stand that doesn't make the world worse. With China, we have to choose between bad outcomes and very bad outcomes.
- leereeves 6y ago
  As China continues to expand they make more people's lives worse, as we saw recently in Hong Kong, not so long ago in Tibet, and may soon see in Taiwan. That expansion is fueled by trade. So even if you're right that refusing to trade with China would not improve the life of the average Chinese person, it might improve the lives of people near China.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    So, did US recent military interventions improved life of the local people? I really see no benefit of creating a new iron curtain. Rather the contrary. And collective punishments usually just tighten the collective bonds. So the best way to unite the chinese people behind their government would be the "free" world uniting against china. How did the sowjet union fall? By trade embargos? Or that its people were finally fed up with it?
    - leereeves 6y ago
      Why were the Soviet Union's people finally fed up with it? The poor standard of living was surely a part of that. By the same reasoning, trade with China helps sustain the CCP.
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        Poor standard of living, no freedom, constantly being lied to - and being aware of it and having finally the courage to do something about. Because other people had the courage first. Thats how it came down. Chinas populations is increasing their standard of living. So you think the outside world has to cripple their economy so the chinese people turn against their rulers? How would you feel about that, if you would live in china just trying to pass by - and have your income halfed because of foreign powers? Would you believe the foreign powers words that they did so because of human rights?
hutzlibu 6y ago
Oh and it seems I forgot, that this is a nationalism inducing topic. My point was, if you would base trade on countries that follow strictly basic humitarian rights - there would be not many options left. So if you actually want that - maybe do so based on clear criterias. Now what whould those criterias be? - funding and supporting of terrorism? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone Involvement in overthrown democratic elected governemnts? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... use of Torture? etc. If you try to make things simple, do so consequently and see how that works out. Usually not too well.

So block any trade with nazi-germany? The biggest engineering hub of the world? Who control whole europe? So sanction the USSR? The whole eastern block? What sort of question is this?

hutzlibu 6y ago

A real one. One that is not engaged with history revisionism. Or did china do a holocaust, or start WW3? I don't think so. China is a totalitarian dictatorship, but not really the only one, nor the worst. But they are not Nazis. Apart from that, how about blocking trade with countries, that do attack other countries, based on caught lies and propaganda? And various other black things? How would that help?

koonsolo 6y ago
You do know who the founder of the PRC is, right? If not, it's Mao, maybe that name rings a bell. Basically the same when Germany would now be ruled by the Nazi party, and you would claim they didn't really do anything bad.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  Last time I checked, Mao is not in charge anymore. Since a very long time. So anyway, you claim, china is worse, than the nazis regime? I would like to get some evidence of gas chambers then pls. Also, how many wars did communist china started, compared to the US?
  - Supermancho 6y ago
    > how many wars did communist china started, compared to the US? China's very prolific in using soldiers, to kill people, in the national interest. Similarly, the US and China both engage in large scale violence to promote their culture. A difference is that China's actions are performed within their borders (more or less) and are not as highly publicized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_China, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong, etc
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      As a qui gong practicer and mountaineer, I am very well aware of chinas atrocities. But like you said, the US is maybe using soldiers to kill in national interest, too. And ethnic issues? How about black lifes matter? But yes, the very big difference is, that in the US there can be a open discussion about, with potential political implications - while in china state cencorship is build in and the one party rule is not to be questioned.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    It does not need to be worse than the nazis to be considered bad. What kind of a ridiculous argument is that ?
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      If the argument is, opposing trade-embargo with china means also opposing trade embargo with nazis - then I think it is valid to point out the historic faults with that argument.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    China was involved in regional conflicts like helping north korea in the korean war, one of the bloodiest wars in recent history. They were also helping the communist party in Vietnam both against the French and the US.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      And later they were also fighting Vietnam. I never claimed china is nice. I claim trade embargos on countries that are not nice, are not helpful. As there are not many "nice" countries out there. Only a couple of small ones, come to my mind.
  - T-A 6y ago
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Peo...
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      "Murder" by its definition has to have intention in it. Framing "the great leap forward" as murder qualifies as propaganda in my book. It was indeed a horrible, human life neglecting catastrophic event, conducted by fanatic extremists imposing their ideology on others. Or rather a series of it. In effect manslaughter on mass scale - yes. But you cannot compare that in honesty to the holocaust - where with gas chambers the clear intention was to murder an entire race. Such framing is not helping anything, definitely not with communication. And about the list of chinas wars ... did you actually compare that to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_mi... ?
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    > china is worse, than the nazis regime? First of all, either you say China is worse than Germany, or PRC is worse than the Nazi regime. And to answer that question, yes, Mao killed way more people than Hitler. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll#List_of_political_leaders_and_regimes_by_death_toll https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogen...

Veen 6y ago

But would refusing to trade with China improve the life of the average Chinese person? Would it free the economic slaves you're concerned about, or would it force hundreds of millions of people into poverty? What you suggest sounds nice in principle, but it would devastate the Chinese economy and most Western economies too. Sometimes, there is no good choice, no principled stand that doesn't make the world worse. With China, we have to choose between bad outcomes and very bad outcomes.

leereeves 6y ago
As China continues to expand they make more people's lives worse, as we saw recently in Hong Kong, not so long ago in Tibet, and may soon see in Taiwan. That expansion is fueled by trade. So even if you're right that refusing to trade with China would not improve the life of the average Chinese person, it might improve the lives of people near China.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  So, did US recent military interventions improved life of the local people? I really see no benefit of creating a new iron curtain. Rather the contrary. And collective punishments usually just tighten the collective bonds. So the best way to unite the chinese people behind their government would be the "free" world uniting against china. How did the sowjet union fall? By trade embargos? Or that its people were finally fed up with it?
  - leereeves 6y ago
    Why were the Soviet Union's people finally fed up with it? The poor standard of living was surely a part of that. By the same reasoning, trade with China helps sustain the CCP.
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      Poor standard of living, no freedom, constantly being lied to - and being aware of it and having finally the courage to do something about. Because other people had the courage first. Thats how it came down. Chinas populations is increasing their standard of living. So you think the outside world has to cripple their economy so the chinese people turn against their rulers? How would you feel about that, if you would live in china just trying to pass by - and have your income halfed because of foreign powers? Would you believe the foreign powers words that they did so because of human rights?

hutzlibu 6y ago

Oh and it seems I forgot, that this is a nationalism inducing topic. My point was, if you would base trade on countries that follow strictly basic humitarian rights - there would be not many options left. So if you actually want that - maybe do so based on clear criterias. Now what whould those criterias be? - funding and supporting of terrorism? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone Involvement in overthrown democratic elected governemnts? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... use of Torture? etc. If you try to make things simple, do so consequently and see how that works out. Usually not too well.