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UK finds 30 blood clot cases after AstraZeneca jab
- alien_ 6y agoThere are lots of conspiracy theories spreading FUD especially about the AZ vaccine and such news don't help. How many deaths were caused by the AZ and other vaccines so far and how does that compare with the mortality rate of the disease? Is there any website that is gathering and debunking these conspiracy theories?
- encryptluks2 6y agoWell if you die from the vaccine, wouldn't that be another death attributed to coronavirus?
- xref 6y agoThere’s no coronavirus genetic material in any of the vaccines, so no
- tootahe45 6y agoI think 'Trust the soyence bro' and labeling anything negative about vaccines a conspiracy theory is probably what convinces people on the fence to become anti vaxxers.
- alien_ 6y agoHow else would you describe it, would "spreading FUD" be more appropriate/neutral? By debunking I don't mean labeling them negatively but fact-checking the claims and showing reasonable people on the fence provable evidence to help them think for themselves based on facts and not just to blindly believe the sensationalist rumors.
- c7DJTLrn 6y agoAnd although it's not relevant, the whole vaccine passport thing is turning me against it. I don't see why everybody should be required to have something injected into their body to live their lives as normal, especially given that not everybody needs to have it for the virus to fizzle out. This strong-arming should be enough to make anyone suspicious.
- kolinko 6y agoIt’s like saying „the society won’t collapse if some people don’t pay taxes - so why do we force people to pay them”.
- c7DJTLrn 6y agoThat's not comparable at all. Taxes are payments that a citizen is morally and legally obliged to pay the state for upkeep and services. Not paying taxes is essentially stealing from others. There is no moral or legal obligation to have a vaccine. Choosing to not have a vaccine is not stealing from anyone else. It does not reduce the effectiveness of their vaccination. In fact, a large chunk of people could choose not to be vaccinated and we will still crush COVID-19. They should have the choice - why should everyone be strong-armed into having it if it's not necessary and they're not comfortable with it?
- sharken 6y agoIt's not the same thing. But I do wonder how the vaccine requirement will play out, Texas for instance does not force the vaccine upon it's population, which i think is the right way to go about it. The Malaria vaccine was one i skipped due to side effects and i think you should have a similar free choice for the Corona vaccine.
- evgen 6y agoYou should have the right to refuse a vaccine and the rest of us should have the right to not associate with people who have decided to put the rest of us at risk. If only we had some way to easily let people know to which group you belong...
- alien_ 6y agoCan someone please explain the downvotes? I'm trying to understand what was offensive about this.
- fauigerzigerk 6y agoYou're playing straight into the hands of real conspiracy theorists with this kind of reaction. This is just reporting on very basic facts coming directly from the UK government: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid...
- alien_ 6y agoSorry, didn't mean to but as I've said above in the thread just the other day I've seen on Facebook a pretty elaborate FUD/conspiracy theory being endorsed by a former religiously active colleague. It was linking AZ trial side effects with apocalyptic prophecies and DoD involvement in designing a virus targeting middle eastern religious fundamentalists. My point was that there should be a way to debunk these with fact-based evidence for people willing to reason from facts or at least to raise a few question marks on their assumptions.
- xtracto 6y ago>Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
- rado 6y agoOf course they should investigate, but journalists need to point out this is one in a million, much lower than the normal rate.
- dazc 6y agoSo, statistically, the risk of a blood clot is actually reduced?
- encryptluks2 6y agoLoL, like the flu disappearing in Washington State.
- mytailorisrich 6y agoThat's what they indeed reported in the UK because the number of blood clots allegedly caused by the vaccine is, according to what they reported, lower than would be expected in the general population.
- Erlich_Bachman 6y agoNo, the risk according to this topic is increased compared to standard rate of blood clots. (The parent comment wording was basically "wrong", meaning- giving off a false impression.)
- yread 6y agoFunnily enough, that would actually also be a warning sign. It needs to be not significantly different. Otherwise it means that the vaccine is interfering with blood coagulation, which is not what it's meant to do
- matzab 6y agoYou mean higher? This is not about "normal" blood clots. This is about cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, sometimes in conjunction with thrombocytopenia.
- xref 6y agoThey conveniently don’t include any data about how these numbers compare to the population at large.
- matzab 6y agoIn Germany incidence of CVST is around .3-.5/100,000 per year. (Higher in women under 50; some undiagnosed cases probably notwithstanding) Vaxzevira (the A-Z vaccine) has been in use for less than 3 months, ~2.2M doses have been given, resulting in 31 cases. So, worst case, you would have expected around 5 cases at this time. (Edit: changed acronym to English version, instead of the German one)
- Toenex 6y agoDoes this comparison account for the vaccinations being administered to specific populations? In the UK it's been targeted at the most vulnerable & elderly.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- oliwarner 6y agoHistorical trends don't factor in the past 12m stay-at and work-from home spike, and related spike in sedentary living. Your natural incidence rate is whole-population but the vaccine rollout has been weighted to the oldest and least healthy. These may be the population that most of those cases happened in otherwise. You can assuage some of these things by looking at other vaccines, assuming they're given to the same demographics.
- o_p 6y agoThe same argument can be applied to covid deaths itself.
- xref 6y agoHuh? The number of people who died of sars-ncov-2 compared to how many died of it...before it existed?
- _ph_ 6y agoSome observations just from watching the news reports about AZ, especially here in Germany: - over 30 cases were observed, that is statistically higher than expected, that would have been less than 5. - all cases were below 55, very few men - due to the approval process in EU, AZ wasn't approved for people over 65 until very recently, as the initial approval didn't contain the necessary data in this age group. As a consequence, AZ was used for young people that qualified for a vaccination, e.g. health workers, teachers. Other than these groups, general vaccination only happened above 70 for the scarcity of vaccine. - As AZ is now approved for any age group, last week the vaccination plan was altered, AZ is now used only for people over 60, everyone else gets other vaccines (mostly BioNTech) - the UK always used AZ for all age groups, starting with the oldest. Currently people down to the age 50. So the majority of the vaccinated people in the UK was above the age group in which the cases had been observed in the EU.
- raverbashing 6y ago> due to the approval process in EU, AZ wasn't approved for people over 65 until very recently No, the EMA was perfectly happy with giving it to people over 65, it was the local health authorities who wanted to "have their say" and nitpicked it. Now look and behold, it seems it maybe was a better idea to keep it to the older cohorts. And yes, the fact that the UK went to the older cohorts first might explain why they have seen fewer cases.
- libertine 6y ago>No, the EMA was perfectly happy with giving it to people over 65, it was the local health authorities who wanted to "have their say" and nitpicked it. Why are you framing the event of AZ doing a bad job at their trails and submitted literally bad data, and tried to mix it up with different data, as being the authorities "having their say"? It wasn't just one local health authority, it was even health authorities that has no influence from EMA, like Switzerland. At best your critic would be... they are rigorous and extremely demanding about these subjects? Maybe, just maybe, a large pharmaceutical that got hundreds of millions in funding simply shouldn't fuck up trials?
- refurb 6y agoAnyone interested in possible explanations for this should read Derek Lowe’s blog. https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/30/blood-clots-and-the-az-vaccine-revisited https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/30/bl... ” A possible concern is what’s being called vaccine-induced prothrombotic immune thrombocytopenia (VIPIT) by Andreas Greinacher at Univ. Griefswald. This is a blood clotting syndrome that’s similar to what’s observed with the (already known) syndrome of heparin-induced thrombocytopenia. That problem, first over 40 years ago, is a paradoxical effect that occurs in a few people of administering heparin for blood clotting problems and actually making the situation worse.”
- alexaholic 6y agoI’ve seen some comments here saying this is one in a million. Here’s the thing: while that may be statistically true, it’s not an argument to convince people to take the shot. You can’t tell folks “hey, listen, there’s a very slight chance you’re gonna die, but don’t you worry - mathematics is on your side”. It looks like a lottery nobody wants to play. People don’t care about mathematics. Mathematics didn’t make sense in school, it sure not gonna make sense in their life-or-death situation. Ironically, this is the kind of irrational thinking that needlessly exposes the very same people to the virus. The difference is the virus is an accident, while the antivirus is a choice, so I guess they’re essentially saying “I’d rather my death was an accident not my deliberate choice”. I don’t blame people, though. A friend of mine did the AZ shot recently. The next day he had chest pains and palpitations so severe he thought he was going to have a heart attack. He has a heart disease, but the doctor said the vaccine was safe, and he trusts doctors. Now he’s sh!t scared to take the second dose. The doctor says he’s gonna do fine, and he can’t get tested to see if it’s safe. The vaccine is the test. Should I tell him about statistics? I’d be heartless if I did. He’s well aware of the numbers, but the fear of death (or the desire to live) win against mathematics.
- alexaholic 6y agoI’ve no idea why I’m being downvoted. I’d appreciate it if anyone replied and explained why they’d done so.
- nikanj 6y agoBecause you sound like all the anti-vaxxers on Facebook. ”I know science says it’s safe, but here’s an emotion-inducing anecdote that makes you second-guess things”
- alexaholic 6y agoIt’s nothing like that. I’m simply stating a sciency argument won’t work to the masses. As far as the “emotion-inducing anecdote” is concerned, I’m only telling that story to remind that mathematics does more harm where a hug is more appropriate.
- libertine 6y agoAgain the British media did a disservice to the vaccination effort, after weeks of bashing several regulators for making the decision of investigating this anomaly, and never once questioned the possibility that maybe it wasn't yet expressed in the UK data because their own regulator missed these cases. One thing is to bash the EU politicians because that's kind of what they are there for, other thing is to bash health authorities, regulators, doctors and scientists out of some sick sense of nationalism and superiority. It's just sad. Norway, Germany, Denmark and other countries regulator bodies worked together to identify the anomaly, what triggers it, and how to deal with it, and this will prevent unnecessary deaths of people that are committed to help stop this pandemic by taking a vaccine. That's how these agencies should work, that's why everyone should be relieved about taking a vaccine - they didn't create new protocols, or closed their eyes, or bent over politics, just because this vaccine effort is important. They know what they are doing, and questioning them out of arrogance it's just an expression of ignorance.
- yread 6y agoToday Eudra Vigilance database will contain numbers for this week. Last week there were 59 cases of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (the week before 31 the week before 7), 14 died, only 3 recovered so far. 45 women, 14 men almost all 18-64 years. https://ibb.co/5TmLRPL https://ibb.co/5TmLRPL
- yread 6y agoNow it's 107 cases with 22 dead and 5 recovered