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"Go is one of the HN darling languages" It's def not the case, I spend too much time here and on Reddit and people are always complaining about Go ( generics,

by Thaxll 6y ago

"Go is one of the HN darling languages" It's def not the case, I spend too much time here and on Reddit and people are always complaining about Go ( generics, errors, type system etc ... ), if you want the godly language it would be Rust, anything about Rust will be upvoted. As for Java, it's a good language / runtime that is overly complicated behind layers of abstraction. Take Spring for examnple, magic everywhere, add an anotation there and it does x.y.z, you can't see it in the code but it does something.

kaba0 6y ago
Java itself is most definitely not overly complicated. Many frameworks, and created programs are due to enterpriseTM software development, but it’s orthogonal. And spring is a really feature-packed framework which has a solution for almost every business problem that one can face. Of course it comes with a great deal of complexity, but it is a tradeoff. I rather tinker with how to use a given feature than implement it myself, often in an inferior way.
ragnese 6y ago
The hype around Rust is largely justified. There. I said it. Rust is nowhere near perfect. It's also supposed to be a systems language- it was probably not originally intended to replace languages like Java for general "app" development. But it's so much better of a language than most of the higher level languages you see in popular use: Java, PHP, JavaScript, Python, etc, that people are actually willing to deal with the lack of garbage collection just to get to use its excellent type system and well-designed standard library API. I think that says a lot about Rust and the programming language environment today.
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  It surprises me that we don’t yet have an applications language with an ultra-modern type-system. It’s so strange that the current leaders are a scripting-transpiler (TypeScript) and a systems language (Rust) - but not an apps language in-between. ...then again it’s understandable when you see how the traditional apps languages (C#, Java, etc) are severely hobbled by their VM/runtime, because that’s usually the source of constraints on their type-system. Kotlin and F# do some neat tricks to work-around the limitations they inherited from the JVM and the .NET CLR respectively, but I think we’ve reached the limits of what platforms originally designed ~25 years ago can reach. I just don’t see the JVM nor the CLR getting anything like first-class support for higher-kinded types or true algebraic types: there’s too much pressure from establishment banks and insurance companies not to break their decades-old codebases maintained by outsourcing companies. Languages like Swift and Go are free to break their own molds because they’re happy not leaving a legacy, but what will that mean for Rust? Systems code is the last place you need major breaking changes, but I don’t see Rust’s progress slowing down the way ISO C++ languished for almost 20 years. Hmmm.
  - ragnese 6y ago
    It surprises me as well. And to belabor my own point some more: there's a reason the #1 question about Rust from newbies seems to be "Is there a language like Rust, but with a garbage collector?" - sometimes reworded as "Is there a way to turn off the borrow checker?" To be fair, I think that a decent amount is possible on JVM and CLR. Scala, for as much hate as it gets, has a much stronger type system than Kotlin/Java. And Swift has its own backwards baggage! It has to work with Objective-C. There's actually a few weird things in Swift that I've bumped into that I'm pretty sure are only there because of Objective-C. The Rust devs certainly take backwards compatibility very seriously and they guarantee backwards compatibility forever. There will be no breaking changes in Rust except in extreme cases of finding unsoundness or whatever. There are currently ZERO good high level app-building languages, IMO. Rust isn't it because of the lack of garbage collection (which is not a point against Rust- just for the "domain" of optimizing for user-space app development). Swift would probably be it, but it's pretty much Apple-only and I don't expect that to change. TypeScript is close, but it's held back by needing to work with JavaScript and the JavaScript standard library and ecosystem suck. It also can't do threads. Kotlin/Java are decent, but not good at concurrency, and having things like different sized integer types is really silly for a high-level language where everything goes on the heap anyway... Python is slow and can't do threads. Some languages like Lisps and MLs might be good for building apps if they just had the ecosystem around it. Haskell would be a giant pain the ass because real apps are full of "IO". So, yeah. It's kind of a miracle that we can get anything done. I guess that's why we get paid so well...
    - The_rationalist 6y ago
      Kotlin is the application language you're looking for (and Scala 3 to a lesser extent). Contrary to what you say it is the best language I've ever used for concurrency. It has it all, structured concurrency, cancelation, Flow, transparency (no await), etc. Regarding your second point the JVM is increasingly using the stack and with the soon complete generics you'll be able to avoid the boxed versions of the primitive types (though they remain useful when you want identity)
      - 6y ago
geodel 6y ago
> if you want the godly language it would be Rust, anything about Rust will be upvoted. That is just better half part, sad part is anything negative about Rust will be heavily downvoted. Most of the time I disagree with Java/Go in their thread it would be just fine but not with Rust.
- The_rationalist 6y ago
  The same can be said about pro chromium or contra mozilla comments, it's a kind of cargo cultism/echo chamber
vips7L 6y ago
You can just stop using Spring. There's plenty of good web libraries out there. Javalin, Spark, Micronaut, Quarkus, heck I'd probably even take JEE over Spring nowadays.

by Thaxll 6y ago

kaba0 6y ago

Java itself is most definitely not overly complicated. Many frameworks, and created programs are due to enterpriseTM software development, but it’s orthogonal. And spring is a really feature-packed framework which has a solution for almost every business problem that one can face. Of course it comes with a great deal of complexity, but it is a tradeoff. I rather tinker with how to use a given feature than implement it myself, often in an inferior way.

ragnese 6y ago

The hype around Rust is largely justified. There. I said it. Rust is nowhere near perfect. It's also supposed to be a systems language- it was probably not originally intended to replace languages like Java for general "app" development. But it's so much better of a language than most of the higher level languages you see in popular use: Java, PHP, JavaScript, Python, etc, that people are actually willing to deal with the lack of garbage collection just to get to use its excellent type system and well-designed standard library API. I think that says a lot about Rust and the programming language environment today.

DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
It surprises me that we don’t yet have an applications language with an ultra-modern type-system. It’s so strange that the current leaders are a scripting-transpiler (TypeScript) and a systems language (Rust) - but not an apps language in-between. ...then again it’s understandable when you see how the traditional apps languages (C#, Java, etc) are severely hobbled by their VM/runtime, because that’s usually the source of constraints on their type-system. Kotlin and F# do some neat tricks to work-around the limitations they inherited from the JVM and the .NET CLR respectively, but I think we’ve reached the limits of what platforms originally designed ~25 years ago can reach. I just don’t see the JVM nor the CLR getting anything like first-class support for higher-kinded types or true algebraic types: there’s too much pressure from establishment banks and insurance companies not to break their decades-old codebases maintained by outsourcing companies. Languages like Swift and Go are free to break their own molds because they’re happy not leaving a legacy, but what will that mean for Rust? Systems code is the last place you need major breaking changes, but I don’t see Rust’s progress slowing down the way ISO C++ languished for almost 20 years. Hmmm.
- ragnese 6y ago
  It surprises me as well. And to belabor my own point some more: there's a reason the #1 question about Rust from newbies seems to be "Is there a language like Rust, but with a garbage collector?" - sometimes reworded as "Is there a way to turn off the borrow checker?" To be fair, I think that a decent amount is possible on JVM and CLR. Scala, for as much hate as it gets, has a much stronger type system than Kotlin/Java. And Swift has its own backwards baggage! It has to work with Objective-C. There's actually a few weird things in Swift that I've bumped into that I'm pretty sure are only there because of Objective-C. The Rust devs certainly take backwards compatibility very seriously and they guarantee backwards compatibility forever. There will be no breaking changes in Rust except in extreme cases of finding unsoundness or whatever. There are currently ZERO good high level app-building languages, IMO. Rust isn't it because of the lack of garbage collection (which is not a point against Rust- just for the "domain" of optimizing for user-space app development). Swift would probably be it, but it's pretty much Apple-only and I don't expect that to change. TypeScript is close, but it's held back by needing to work with JavaScript and the JavaScript standard library and ecosystem suck. It also can't do threads. Kotlin/Java are decent, but not good at concurrency, and having things like different sized integer types is really silly for a high-level language where everything goes on the heap anyway... Python is slow and can't do threads. Some languages like Lisps and MLs might be good for building apps if they just had the ecosystem around it. Haskell would be a giant pain the ass because real apps are full of "IO". So, yeah. It's kind of a miracle that we can get anything done. I guess that's why we get paid so well...
  - The_rationalist 6y ago
    Kotlin is the application language you're looking for (and Scala 3 to a lesser extent). Contrary to what you say it is the best language I've ever used for concurrency. It has it all, structured concurrency, cancelation, Flow, transparency (no await), etc. Regarding your second point the JVM is increasingly using the stack and with the soon complete generics you'll be able to avoid the boxed versions of the primitive types (though they remain useful when you want identity)
    - 6y ago

geodel 6y ago

> if you want the godly language it would be Rust, anything about Rust will be upvoted. That is just better half part, sad part is anything negative about Rust will be heavily downvoted. Most of the time I disagree with Java/Go in their thread it would be just fine but not with Rust.

The_rationalist 6y ago
The same can be said about pro chromium or contra mozilla comments, it's a kind of cargo cultism/echo chamber

vips7L 6y ago

You can just stop using Spring. There's plenty of good web libraries out there. Javalin, Spark, Micronaut, Quarkus, heck I'd probably even take JEE over Spring nowadays.