5 ms·

> Maybe we should start pulling chips of trashed electronics. There must be hundreds of thousands decently fast chips going into our trash. This is already bee

> Maybe we should start pulling chips of trashed electronics. There must be hundreds of thousands decently fast chips going into our trash. This is already been happening for decades on industrial scale in countries doing eWaste recycling. Just a decade ago, you could've still find people selling refurbished chips in Shenzhen on every corner. Now it kinds of became a much more low profile enterprise. The US defence department, colloquially known as the pentagon, ran a wargame scenario a few years ago to see what will happen if US will be hit with a worst case scenario, years long semiconductor unavailability due to sabotage of domestic fabs, massive industry wide cyberattack, or something happening to Taiwan. One of comissioned think tanks recommended that exact methods of military going door-to-door to gather old gaming console, smartphones, and PCs for conversion to use in munitions, and military equipment.

athrowaway3z 6y ago
I can kinda see the value of getting a million PS3 cpus for in your new drone swarm or industry controllers. But how is gathering generic decades old hardware going to help? For Computation as a service its not that valuable or easy to install. And for reuse in 'new' devices it's even more questionable. All this stuff barely just works in this specific configuration.
- chefkoch 6y ago
  Military equipment is often more than a decade old and uses far older electronics.
- blagie 6y ago
  I'm only doing a few things on machine with around 32GHz worth of processing power (# of processors * GHz) that I couldn't do on my 80486 running 33MHz with a few MB of RAM. Emacs starts up a little bit faster. Pages in Chrome are more interactive than in Lynx, Mosaic, or Netscape. My word processor fits more text. On the whole, that 1000x increase in performance mostly bought the ability to have most of the code that runs be interpreted or JITed rather than statically compiled, to play videos, to do some heavy numerics and graphics (including things like family photos and videos), and so on. It's hard to think of anything I really /need/ in a life-or-death sense or an economic-survival sense that couldn't be done on older hardware with appropriate software. There's a ton of things I want, that help, or where migrations would be massive projects. If computers were to entirely disappear, and I couldn't automate things, communicate digitally (emails, messaging), word process, write code, I think that'd be a major systemic-collapse-level implosion of society. A lot of people would simply die. On the other hand, if computers were to regress to 33MHz-level performance, Youtube isn't sticking around, but we'd likely adapt as a society with some structural change, but without such a collapse.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    > Youtube isn't sticking around As an end user it would be manageable but dont forget that the whole world runs on servers and many Industries would collapse if computing power is gone
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      Computational power < network connectivity If we lost a few decades of processor improvements, it would be about as parent noted. If we lost worldwide connectivity or all undersea backbones between some terrestrial networks... it would be civilization-altering.
      - blagie 6y ago
        I feel like BBSes did okay for most purposes over 300 baud modems. I mean, I'm not getting a picture of what I'm buying on Amazon, unless I want to wait 5 minutes for it to download, but I can still make the purchase. On the server side, you'll be running C code rather than a nice high-level language, but it will get the job done. You might not have all the ML which lets me get the most relevant product recommended, but.... Emails definitely won't be HTML, but they'll come through. The world would work.
  - ip26 6y ago
    Older levels of performance wouldn't cripple humanity. But putting together something that actually works out of a big parts bin is a crapshoot, and supporting a deployment of machines which are each completely unique is an IT nightmare. We could do it if we had to, of course.
    - toast0 6y ago
      I think the best chances to get something useful would be to collect x86 consoles. x86 means you've got a well supported target, and consoles means you've got limited hardware variations. Military could probably pressure Microsoft to give them some way to turn an original xbox into a PC; and if you give people $50 for an original xbox most will be happy.
- unionpivo 6y ago
  because for a lot of things you don't need that much cpu power. Creating something that can read several sensors (switches and buttons are also sensors), and putting aggregate status updates on a serial line, or displaying status lights, triggering relay or something similar can be done, on decades old gaming consoles, and is probably one of the most common use of processors in the world today. In fact it is easier than trying to use modern cpu, that wasn't designed for that. Not everything is about computation, in fact in terms of units sold its probably a minority.
hyko 6y ago
My first reaction to this plan is that it’s for the birds. The government would be better off just building a fab themselves. The raw materials aren’t that hard to get hold of; integrating consumer electronics into military systems would likely take just as long, if not longer (with all sorts of other negative effects on quality and security). I guess the analogy is with scrap metal drives in WWII, but this situation is nothing like that at all. It’s a fantasy scenario that makes no sense. We defend Taiwan with everything we’ve got. There is no plan B, and it’s not just about semiconductors.
- Tade0 6y ago
  IIRC the US navy is currently using XBox controllers: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military-xbox-360-controller https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military... Of course this is a far cry from ripping a SoC from a smartphone and putting it into e.g a bomber drone, but I assume there's much more being done - just not published.
  - hyko 6y ago
    Wow. As long as they’re not using joy cons I guess!
  - mbreese 6y ago
    One of the reasons cited for using XBox controllers was the availability. If one breaks, you can find them at any port. Very apropos in this context... I have a vision that on a submarine there is a cable box, not unlike the one that most of us probably have, filled with random cables with connectors we haven't used in years. And somewhere in that tangled mess is a spare XBox controller. I can imagine some poor Seaman trying to untangle a the controller cord so that they can use a periscope. I'm sure the Navy is far more organized, but it's funny to think about.
  - qchris 6y ago
    I absolutely believe it-I use one professionally to maneuver an underwater ROV. They're intuitive, already familiar to a lot of people, and surprisingly reliable.
squarefoot 6y ago
"The US defence department, colloquially known as the pentagon, ran a wargame scenario a few years ago to see what will happen if US will be hit with a worst case scenario, years long semiconductor unavailability due to sabotage of domestic fabs, massive industry wide cyberattack, or something happening to Taiwan." There is also the danger of counterfeit chips. It is already a plague for those of us hoping to get some good deals from Chinese vendors, but the US Navy as well was hit at least once with fakes. https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-ccips/legacy/2012/03/15/felahyPlea.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-ccips/l... (.pdf document)

athrowaway3z 6y ago

I can kinda see the value of getting a million PS3 cpus for in your new drone swarm or industry controllers. But how is gathering generic decades old hardware going to help? For Computation as a service its not that valuable or easy to install. And for reuse in 'new' devices it's even more questionable. All this stuff barely just works in this specific configuration.

chefkoch 6y ago
Military equipment is often more than a decade old and uses far older electronics.
blagie 6y ago
I'm only doing a few things on machine with around 32GHz worth of processing power (# of processors * GHz) that I couldn't do on my 80486 running 33MHz with a few MB of RAM. Emacs starts up a little bit faster. Pages in Chrome are more interactive than in Lynx, Mosaic, or Netscape. My word processor fits more text. On the whole, that 1000x increase in performance mostly bought the ability to have most of the code that runs be interpreted or JITed rather than statically compiled, to play videos, to do some heavy numerics and graphics (including things like family photos and videos), and so on. It's hard to think of anything I really /need/ in a life-or-death sense or an economic-survival sense that couldn't be done on older hardware with appropriate software. There's a ton of things I want, that help, or where migrations would be massive projects. If computers were to entirely disappear, and I couldn't automate things, communicate digitally (emails, messaging), word process, write code, I think that'd be a major systemic-collapse-level implosion of society. A lot of people would simply die. On the other hand, if computers were to regress to 33MHz-level performance, Youtube isn't sticking around, but we'd likely adapt as a society with some structural change, but without such a collapse.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  > Youtube isn't sticking around As an end user it would be manageable but dont forget that the whole world runs on servers and many Industries would collapse if computing power is gone
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    Computational power < network connectivity If we lost a few decades of processor improvements, it would be about as parent noted. If we lost worldwide connectivity or all undersea backbones between some terrestrial networks... it would be civilization-altering.
    - blagie 6y ago
      I feel like BBSes did okay for most purposes over 300 baud modems. I mean, I'm not getting a picture of what I'm buying on Amazon, unless I want to wait 5 minutes for it to download, but I can still make the purchase. On the server side, you'll be running C code rather than a nice high-level language, but it will get the job done. You might not have all the ML which lets me get the most relevant product recommended, but.... Emails definitely won't be HTML, but they'll come through. The world would work.
- ip26 6y ago
  Older levels of performance wouldn't cripple humanity. But putting together something that actually works out of a big parts bin is a crapshoot, and supporting a deployment of machines which are each completely unique is an IT nightmare. We could do it if we had to, of course.
  - toast0 6y ago
    I think the best chances to get something useful would be to collect x86 consoles. x86 means you've got a well supported target, and consoles means you've got limited hardware variations. Military could probably pressure Microsoft to give them some way to turn an original xbox into a PC; and if you give people $50 for an original xbox most will be happy.
unionpivo 6y ago
because for a lot of things you don't need that much cpu power. Creating something that can read several sensors (switches and buttons are also sensors), and putting aggregate status updates on a serial line, or displaying status lights, triggering relay or something similar can be done, on decades old gaming consoles, and is probably one of the most common use of processors in the world today. In fact it is easier than trying to use modern cpu, that wasn't designed for that. Not everything is about computation, in fact in terms of units sold its probably a minority.

hyko 6y ago

My first reaction to this plan is that it’s for the birds. The government would be better off just building a fab themselves. The raw materials aren’t that hard to get hold of; integrating consumer electronics into military systems would likely take just as long, if not longer (with all sorts of other negative effects on quality and security). I guess the analogy is with scrap metal drives in WWII, but this situation is nothing like that at all. It’s a fantasy scenario that makes no sense. We defend Taiwan with everything we’ve got. There is no plan B, and it’s not just about semiconductors.

Tade0 6y ago
IIRC the US navy is currently using XBox controllers: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military-xbox-360-controller https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military... Of course this is a far cry from ripping a SoC from a smartphone and putting it into e.g a bomber drone, but I assume there's much more being done - just not published.
- hyko 6y ago
  Wow. As long as they’re not using joy cons I guess!
- mbreese 6y ago
  One of the reasons cited for using XBox controllers was the availability. If one breaks, you can find them at any port. Very apropos in this context... I have a vision that on a submarine there is a cable box, not unlike the one that most of us probably have, filled with random cables with connectors we haven't used in years. And somewhere in that tangled mess is a spare XBox controller. I can imagine some poor Seaman trying to untangle a the controller cord so that they can use a periscope. I'm sure the Navy is far more organized, but it's funny to think about.
- qchris 6y ago
  I absolutely believe it-I use one professionally to maneuver an underwater ROV. They're intuitive, already familiar to a lot of people, and surprisingly reliable.

squarefoot 6y ago

"The US defence department, colloquially known as the pentagon, ran a wargame scenario a few years ago to see what will happen if US will be hit with a worst case scenario, years long semiconductor unavailability due to sabotage of domestic fabs, massive industry wide cyberattack, or something happening to Taiwan." There is also the danger of counterfeit chips. It is already a plague for those of us hoping to get some good deals from Chinese vendors, but the US Navy as well was hit at least once with fakes. https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-ccips/legacy/2012/03/15/felahyPlea.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-ccips/l... (.pdf document)