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How does this compare with Tesla's offering, technology wise? It seems to me that battery-based storage isn't very advanced technology, and is something that i

How does this compare with Tesla's offering, technology wise? It seems to me that battery-based storage isn't very advanced technology, and is something that is enabled by declining battery prices. I see Tesla fans pointing to it as another one of Tesla's trillion dollar markets, but it never seemed like something Tesla would have an exclusive lock on.

fastball 6y ago
Except for patents nobody ever has an exclusive lock on anything. What Tesla does have is: 1. A helluva lotta actual battery cell production. 2. Practical experience deploying / analyzing / etc more Joules worth of batteries than probably anyone else. 3. Advanced battery research that is focused on more practical improvements than the pie-in-the-sky research we've seen a lot of over the past few decades ("this battery is flexible and has 10x storage of Li-ion and charges in 1 second") that never makes it out of the lab. With (3), there is always the risk (to Tesla) that one of these futuristic battery techs actually works out and makes it into production, but until then Tesla's approach (making improvements to things we know work in production / at scale) is probably a wise one.
- amelius 6y ago
  1 and 2 -> easily duplicated by some Asian country. 3 -> how much improvement are you talking about?
  - gpm 6y ago
    > 1 and 2 -> easily duplicated by some Asian country. This implies some curious assumption that Asian countries are somehow innately better at this sort of work? I'm not sure that holds up. Certainly the environments are different, different standards for acceptable pollution, acceptable levels of corruption, wages, safety, government subsidies, etc. These vary as wildly within Asian countries (Japan, Korea, China, ...) as they do between western countries and Asian countries though, and it's really not clear to me which countries environment is superior. Assuming you're comparing to a high corruption low safety/environment/wages country... Lack of corruption and fraud goes a long way. Wages and safety cost less as things become more automated. I'm not sure how subsidies break down, but I suspect that there are more available for this sort of technology in the western world. Etc.
    - amelius 6y ago
      The point was that battery tech is not very advanced (compared to, say, building a microprocessor), and hence the assumption that an Asian country can easily duplicate it, especially considering the points you make (low wages, different standards, etc.)
      - fastball 6y ago
        - Battery tech can be very advanced. Tesla's manufacturing techniques are far from trivial. - The most advanced chip fab (TSMC) is Taiwanese (i.e. Asian).
  - fastball 6y ago
    1. Tesla is outpacing Asian manufacturers, not the other way around. 2. Your first point doesn't really apply to my point (2), as that was more about how Tesla is actually getting feedback on their batteries in the field, through servicing their own cars / battery packs and getting constant battery data from the cars themselves and from use of their Supercharger network. This is incredibly useful, others aren't really doing it, and "being Asian" isn't really a silver bullet for this one... 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK79ioBW8Mg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK79ioBW8Mg
drcross 6y ago
Tesla has first mover advantage in that they secured lithium salt flats in Peru back in like 2015. Last year they announced an aggressive pathway to halving the cost of kwh storage due in part because their business depends so much on it.
mulcahey 6y ago
It appears this is Tesla’s offering https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/31/22360839/apple-tesla-megapack-energy-storage-grid-solar-batteries https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/31/22360839/apple-tesla-mega...

fastball 6y ago

Except for patents nobody ever has an exclusive lock on anything. What Tesla does have is: 1. A helluva lotta actual battery cell production. 2. Practical experience deploying / analyzing / etc more Joules worth of batteries than probably anyone else. 3. Advanced battery research that is focused on more practical improvements than the pie-in-the-sky research we've seen a lot of over the past few decades ("this battery is flexible and has 10x storage of Li-ion and charges in 1 second") that never makes it out of the lab. With (3), there is always the risk (to Tesla) that one of these futuristic battery techs actually works out and makes it into production, but until then Tesla's approach (making improvements to things we know work in production / at scale) is probably a wise one.

amelius 6y ago
1 and 2 -> easily duplicated by some Asian country. 3 -> how much improvement are you talking about?
- gpm 6y ago
  > 1 and 2 -> easily duplicated by some Asian country. This implies some curious assumption that Asian countries are somehow innately better at this sort of work? I'm not sure that holds up. Certainly the environments are different, different standards for acceptable pollution, acceptable levels of corruption, wages, safety, government subsidies, etc. These vary as wildly within Asian countries (Japan, Korea, China, ...) as they do between western countries and Asian countries though, and it's really not clear to me which countries environment is superior. Assuming you're comparing to a high corruption low safety/environment/wages country... Lack of corruption and fraud goes a long way. Wages and safety cost less as things become more automated. I'm not sure how subsidies break down, but I suspect that there are more available for this sort of technology in the western world. Etc.
  - amelius 6y ago
    The point was that battery tech is not very advanced (compared to, say, building a microprocessor), and hence the assumption that an Asian country can easily duplicate it, especially considering the points you make (low wages, different standards, etc.)
    - fastball 6y ago
      - Battery tech can be very advanced. Tesla's manufacturing techniques are far from trivial. - The most advanced chip fab (TSMC) is Taiwanese (i.e. Asian).
- fastball 6y ago
  1. Tesla is outpacing Asian manufacturers, not the other way around. 2. Your first point doesn't really apply to my point (2), as that was more about how Tesla is actually getting feedback on their batteries in the field, through servicing their own cars / battery packs and getting constant battery data from the cars themselves and from use of their Supercharger network. This is incredibly useful, others aren't really doing it, and "being Asian" isn't really a silver bullet for this one... 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK79ioBW8Mg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK79ioBW8Mg

drcross 6y ago

Tesla has first mover advantage in that they secured lithium salt flats in Peru back in like 2015. Last year they announced an aggressive pathway to halving the cost of kwh storage due in part because their business depends so much on it.

mulcahey 6y ago

It appears this is Tesla’s offering https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/31/22360839/apple-tesla-megapack-energy-storage-grid-solar-batteries https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/31/22360839/apple-tesla-mega...