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This old TechCrunch article from 2018 (https://techcrunch.com/2018/08/23/what-is-this-weird-twitter-army-of-amazon-drones-cheerfully-defending-warehouse-work/ h

This old TechCrunch article from 2018 (https://techcrunch.com/2018/08/23/what-is-this-weird-twitter-army-of-amazon-drones-cheerfully-defending-warehouse-work/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/08/23/what-is-this-weird-twitter...) posted at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26636153 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26636153 has a former "Amazon Ambassador" actually explain that job: > An actual former ambassador and three year Florida warehouse veteran Chris Grantham explained it in more detail to Yahoo Finance’s Krystal Hu, who shared the information with TechCrunch: >> When I was there they just got an extra paid day off and a gift card after Peak [pre-holiday season]. This is what I got. A paid day off (that expired in 3 weeks lol) and a $50 Amazon gift card. Plus, they gave us lunch. Coldcuts and sandwich bread. I absolutely did not get paid more to train people. >> Ambassador isn’t a ‘job’ you do every day, its just something you are trained to do. You go to a 4 hour class and they teach you how to teach others to tie a knot using a set of instructions. This is how new hires a supposed to be taught. You are supposed to teach them right from a script using a set protocol. Becoming an ambassador was a way to get out of loading trucks, or packing boxes for 10 to 12 hrs. You may ambassador 1 day then unload trucks for the next 3. >> I stopped doing it after the first year I was there because it didn’t pay more. It’s voluntary. Your manager picks them. Generally speaking ambassadors are the “kiss asses” of the department. > In case it isn’t obvious, Chris is no longer at Amazon and is happy to speak his mind. Thanks for helping us clear this up, Chris.

elmomle 6y ago
Wow, does that ever sound inspired by the Kapo system in Nazi camps. (edit: It was wrong of me to evoke Nazism due to its emotional connotations. I was reminded of the psychological systems of coercion that have been used all through history to efficiently keep oppressed people in line--which Amazon's actions reek of--but could have more effectively expressed my thoughts by saying "that sounds like a psychologically abusive system", or something of the sort.
- nemo44x 6y ago
  Really? Did the Nazis give their prisoners a day out of the camp and 50 Deutschmark to treat themselves with? I don’t think it’s fair to compare this to genocide camps.
  - elmomle 6y ago
    "Inspired by". And yeah, the conditions are far less extreme, but the dynamics of using prisoner's dilemma to reinforce order in the warehouse is deeply cruel, psychologically. Please don't argue that.
    - nemo44x 6y ago
      It’s giving people the option to do something else for awhile and get a small bonus on top. I had numerous jobs when I was young that had similar incentive structures if you wanted it. I doubt my managers were picking it up from Goebbles.
      - elmomle 6y ago
        But were you specifically being the manager's patsy, training other workers and inducting you into a psychological culture of aligning with the manager?
- abraae 6y ago
  Never go full Godwin
TheRealDunkirk 6y ago
For decades, I never thought people who kiss ass could have been serious. I was sure they were just cynically playing a game of advancement, and I despised them for it. What I've come to learn -- as disappointing as it is to me -- is that some people view this sort of thing as actual, legitimate opportunity, and are acting out of internal integrity. They don't see the hypocrisy of the power imbalance and how the company is using them when acting this way. It just doesn't factor into their equation. Higher-ups look for these suck-ups, of course, but I see now that the "real" ones are the ones that really advance because of it. The process optimizes for what I call the "true believers." They wind up in positions where they can, and often do, impede the progress of people who want to make significant contributions to the bottom line. The remaining open question in my mind is to what percentage the "true believers" actually occupy positions of serious power in a Fortune 500 -- say, at the highest 3 levels -- and how many people promoting them are just knowingly using them and their precious lack of objectivity.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- taormina 6y ago
  https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... This is a fantastic read.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - EthanHeilman 6y ago
    As I was reading the above post, I started to remember reading an article on ribbon farm. The next response is someone posting the article I remember. The Hn bubble is real and in some cases has surprisingly low-entropy.
  - eeeeehhhhh 6y ago
    I knew this was going to be posted. I've been thinking about this post for a decade now and I can't help but feel that, although it does reflect part of reality, the Gervais Principle is overly cynical in my opinion, and those who adopt the view will have it compounded by confirmation bias because it is partially true. The things described happen at toxic organizations but the author leaves no room for honest positive and meaningful work, and at risk of pointing out the obvious, there's a lot of meaningful work to be done. To the author of this post, finding meaning in your employment means that you're necessarily a sucker or a psychopath. Where does that leave people like doctors who earnestly help their patients? And God forbid you find the real nobility in doing your workaday job and doing a good job at it, and feel good about yourself. According to the Gervais Principle that makes you the ultimate sucker. Adopting this philosophy is dooming oneself to a neverending feeling of being exploited and the argument that this is what is actually happening in totality is all philosophical opinion so why would I adopt a philosophy that is so personally ruinous, demoralizing, and demotivating?
devindotcom 6y ago
I was going post that link but you beat me to it. When I wrote that it was as I suspected, disingenuous but not wholly invented - these were real people being bribed with cold cuts to parrot scripts, if I'm honest I might have done it to get off my feet for a couple hours in that situation. It was stupid and risible but you could understand it. Now it's gotten much weirder. There are fake accounts that, looking at them, you're not sure who they actually benefit. I think a bunch just got purged. No one took them seriously anyway, so navigating the motivations in the space is super difficult. It's fascinating in some ways but in others I just want to ignore the whole thing.
sushid 6y ago
This reminds me strongly of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. These poor folks are overworked and used up and the "kiss asses" get a little something extra for busting up any hint of unionizing.

elmomle 6y ago

Wow, does that ever sound inspired by the Kapo system in Nazi camps. (edit: It was wrong of me to evoke Nazism due to its emotional connotations. I was reminded of the psychological systems of coercion that have been used all through history to efficiently keep oppressed people in line--which Amazon's actions reek of--but could have more effectively expressed my thoughts by saying "that sounds like a psychologically abusive system", or something of the sort.

nemo44x 6y ago
Really? Did the Nazis give their prisoners a day out of the camp and 50 Deutschmark to treat themselves with? I don’t think it’s fair to compare this to genocide camps.
- elmomle 6y ago
  "Inspired by". And yeah, the conditions are far less extreme, but the dynamics of using prisoner's dilemma to reinforce order in the warehouse is deeply cruel, psychologically. Please don't argue that.
  - nemo44x 6y ago
    It’s giving people the option to do something else for awhile and get a small bonus on top. I had numerous jobs when I was young that had similar incentive structures if you wanted it. I doubt my managers were picking it up from Goebbles.
    - elmomle 6y ago
      But were you specifically being the manager's patsy, training other workers and inducting you into a psychological culture of aligning with the manager?
abraae 6y ago
Never go full Godwin

TheRealDunkirk 6y ago

For decades, I never thought people who kiss ass could have been serious. I was sure they were just cynically playing a game of advancement, and I despised them for it. What I've come to learn -- as disappointing as it is to me -- is that some people view this sort of thing as actual, legitimate opportunity, and are acting out of internal integrity. They don't see the hypocrisy of the power imbalance and how the company is using them when acting this way. It just doesn't factor into their equation. Higher-ups look for these suck-ups, of course, but I see now that the "real" ones are the ones that really advance because of it. The process optimizes for what I call the "true believers." They wind up in positions where they can, and often do, impede the progress of people who want to make significant contributions to the bottom line. The remaining open question in my mind is to what percentage the "true believers" actually occupy positions of serious power in a Fortune 500 -- say, at the highest 3 levels -- and how many people promoting them are just knowingly using them and their precious lack of objectivity.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
taormina 6y ago
https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... This is a fantastic read.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- EthanHeilman 6y ago
  As I was reading the above post, I started to remember reading an article on ribbon farm. The next response is someone posting the article I remember. The Hn bubble is real and in some cases has surprisingly low-entropy.
- eeeeehhhhh 6y ago
  I knew this was going to be posted. I've been thinking about this post for a decade now and I can't help but feel that, although it does reflect part of reality, the Gervais Principle is overly cynical in my opinion, and those who adopt the view will have it compounded by confirmation bias because it is partially true. The things described happen at toxic organizations but the author leaves no room for honest positive and meaningful work, and at risk of pointing out the obvious, there's a lot of meaningful work to be done. To the author of this post, finding meaning in your employment means that you're necessarily a sucker or a psychopath. Where does that leave people like doctors who earnestly help their patients? And God forbid you find the real nobility in doing your workaday job and doing a good job at it, and feel good about yourself. According to the Gervais Principle that makes you the ultimate sucker. Adopting this philosophy is dooming oneself to a neverending feeling of being exploited and the argument that this is what is actually happening in totality is all philosophical opinion so why would I adopt a philosophy that is so personally ruinous, demoralizing, and demotivating?

devindotcom 6y ago

I was going post that link but you beat me to it. When I wrote that it was as I suspected, disingenuous but not wholly invented - these were real people being bribed with cold cuts to parrot scripts, if I'm honest I might have done it to get off my feet for a couple hours in that situation. It was stupid and risible but you could understand it. Now it's gotten much weirder. There are fake accounts that, looking at them, you're not sure who they actually benefit. I think a bunch just got purged. No one took them seriously anyway, so navigating the motivations in the space is super difficult. It's fascinating in some ways but in others I just want to ignore the whole thing.

sushid 6y ago

This reminds me strongly of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. These poor folks are overworked and used up and the "kiss asses" get a little something extra for busting up any hint of unionizing.