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China passes Hong Kong “patriot” election law
- rich_sasha 6y agoThe BBC article that this one references arguably has more detail and analysis: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56560829 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56560829
- hntroll666 6y agoThat's what the CCP always does: invade, stick their tentacles into every possible crevice, cut off any avenues by which it might lose power, and begin tightening and strangling, over the screaming protests of the local people. They did it in Tibet, they're doing it in Xinjiang, they're doing it in Hong Kong. They plan to do the same thing in Taiwan.
- nathanyukai 6y agowhat do you mean by invade? Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong are undoubtedly belongs to China. Sure the tightening is not good in a lot of ways, but I keep seeing the western media trying to convince the world that these regions should be 'independent', I wonder why they are doing that.
- krageon 6y agoIt's a concerted propaganda effort that is unfortunately not helped by the multitudes of people that uncritically accept their home country's stance on everything.
- nathanyukai 6y agoI personally don't uncritically accept the tightening rules that is happening in the recent years, but I just like to point out that it's also a concerted propaganda effort that western media just gang up on China's issues, they don't really care about human rights but are using it a political weapon.
- hntroll666 6y agoWhat do I mean by invade? Simply ask anyone in Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, or Taiwan, if they want mainland Chinese there, or if they want to be governed by the CCP. I accept that territory is won or lost, and the Tibetans and Uyghurs lost their territory, but they were definitely invaded and conquered.
- smallhands 6y agoterritory is won or lost !?? so Japanese war crimes in china is ok too because japan actually invaded and conquered china ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
- yazaddaruvala 6y agoTerritory is won and lost by physical violence. This is the history of every nation. None of that excuses current or historic war crimes. Why is your comment relevant?
- Stevvo 6y agoI have asked many people in those regions excluding Xinjiang, and the answers are never as black and white as the narratives you read online. In Tibet, people were not too happy about the military presence on the streets, the cultural assimilation or the mao statue in the shadow of Potala palace, but on balance are were happy to be part of China due to the economic development. People felt they would be unemployed without han presence. In Hong Kong, the most common thing I heard was vaguely racist grumblings about mainlanders. People were unhappy with mainlanders behaving in an "uncivil" manner. There was a majority acknowledgement of China's sovereignty over Hong Kong, and a strong "Chinese" identity. In Taiwan, things did fit your narrative pretty closely. People want nothing to do with the CCP, and many even wanting nothing to do with the mainland at all.
- ChemSpider 6y agoWell, if you are correct, the CCP could/would organize a public vote in Tibet and Hongkong, just like France did in New Caledonia. That is how you handle such a question. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Caledonian_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Caledonian_independen...
- 3np 6y agoThe "undoubtedly belong to China" is the narrative from the CCP and not shared by many, especially peoples living in and native to those regions.
- nathanyukai 6y ago"especially peoples living in and native to those regions." lol, check American history please.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Mauricebranagh 6y agoTibet was independent before it was taken over by force
- tibbydudeza 6y agoIt was part of China during the Qing dynasty since 1750. They declared independence in 1913 after the fall of the Qing but it was not recognized by the Chinese Republican govt. The PRC re-annexed it in 1951.
- Mauricebranagh 6y agoBy that argument the UK could re annex parts of France and the USA. And Italy could take back large chunks of the near east.
- ChemSpider 6y agoNot only near east. By that logic Italy can rightfully claim almost all of today's Western Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire
- tibbydudeza 6y agoTheir independence lasted 39 years and was not recognized by the new central govt which had bigger issues to deal with. Calais was lost in 1558 and UK monarch stopped using the title "King Of France" in 1800 so it is a settled issue.
- jhanschoo 6y agoConversely, if not for that argument, China would be a hodgepodge of local warlords (what it was post Qing, before ROC's unification). A problem of claims by irredentism is what time period do you consider the proper extent of a nation's territory? This applies to both the rationalisation of Tibet belonging to China, and for not belonging.
- tibbydudeza 6y ago
- fat-chunk 6y agoWe can all disapprove of what the current CCP is doing, but you cannot compare Hong Kong's situation to Taiwan, Tibet or Xinjiang, in fact you're muddling a bunch of completely different situations. Hong Kong has historically always been a part of "China", you could say it was "invaded" by the British and then the Japanese during WW2. I obviously disapprove of the suppression of the HK populace with force, but this is no different to how the CCP operate in the rest of China. If anything the British mandated China had to apply different rules to a portion of their own territory, in classic imperialist fashion.
- nuller 6y agoJust let the HK people decide. You know thats not going to happen because noone wants to be Chinese. Even the fucking Chinese dont want to be Chinese.
- fat-chunk 6y agoIt's really sad to see that even hacker news has now been plagued by sinophobic racism
- anu7df 6y agoI interpret the parent comment "Chinese don't want to be Chinese" as no one (including Chinese citizens) wants to be under the thumb of an authoritarian government. Not a racist comment.
- pyinstallwoes 6y agoBoth points are over generalizations. It's obviously a complex issue. I've been to Taiwan, I've been to Hong Kong, and from my conversations with all types of people the best I can understand as a foreigner is that the Government is not what being Chinese is about. It's about the culture at the end of the day. You could argue that some population of Chinese have kept a certain culture present from a particular time. There's a lot of what I was told (I can't really know) traditional culture in Taiwan. There was an interesting mix of old and new in Hong Kong. It's sad to see so much conflict as a result of weaponizing identity and heritage. The stuff of lore is what makes any story interesting, and we destroy it with inept government structures.
- gmueckl 6y agoIf you look at the New Silk Road Initiative with that mindset, China is in the process of building up influence over countries around half the globe. Foreign governments get huge loans for funding immense infrastructure projects to facilitate trade with China. Reportedly, these loans come with terms that prevent these governments from speaking or acting against China. At least some states are too poor to repay the loans as a lump sum, which gives these agreements teeth.
- hkai 6y agoI am also upset by the lack of elections, but looking at the US politics from Hong Kong, I see a lot of similarities. The attempts to silence and stigmatize opposition, to close opposition media outlets and deplatform them on social media, harassing advertisers to make sure they don't advertise with the opposition, and the media working with the government to promote some events or views and to bury some others — that all is painfully similar to Hong Kong. You guys over in the US should take a closer look at that.
- christophilus 6y agoQuite a few of us are aware and are taking a look at it. It’s an interesting parallel, and I haven’t heard it drawn quite the way you did. The situation here is a fascinating study that I’d love to read about and analyze in retrospect. Unfortunately, it’s not as fun to live through in real time.
- xwolfi 6y agoI m in HK and I don't know what to think. Between protestors destroying the streets like monkeys and the country punishing everyone using this as an excuse, we're well surrounded :D Hong Kong shouldn't be independent but is China the right country for us, is how I jokingly troll both extremes. End of the day nobody cares, we're still discussing who elect the mayor of the city and people are talking like we're losing insane amount of representativity. We had not much to begin with :D I d be more interested to move on and start discussing how we elect the president of our country now that we all agree we should be patriotic ;)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ladyanita22 6y agoYou'd be better off in the UK.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoOnly if you have millions , they are definitely not interested in poor HK folk that are living in cage homes.
- hardlianotion 6y agoThe criterion is to hold a BNO passport. You don't have to be a millionaire for that. Three million Hong Kongers are eligible.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoThere were 6.489 million people in Hong Kong when it reverted back to China , they should have given everybody that before they left.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- op03 6y agoNext up Taiwan.
- sterlind 6y agoTaiwan will be a bigger deal geopolitically. PRC has no claim to Taiwan that's recognized by the broader international community (outside China's sphere of influence, anyway.) Under Westphalian rules Hong Kong is seen as an internal matter, but Taiwan would be a straight-up war. Plus it would absolutely wreck the semiconductor industry worldwide to lose TSMC.
- ekianjo 6y ago> Taiwan would be a straight-up war That will be shortest war ever. If China does an embargo on Taiwan and encircles it, there's nothing that Taiwan could do in the long run. They will be forced to negotiate. And you can bet the US has no intention to intervene.
- pyinstallwoes 6y agoPropaganda published, I mean, information published said War Simulations indicated quick win for China - I can't find the exact metric but if I recall correctly it was within hours a decisive victory to a day. This wasn't the one I read but there's plenty like it: https://news.yahoo.com/were-going-to-lose-fast-us-air-force-held-a-war-game-that-started-with-a-chinese-biological-attack-170003936.html https://news.yahoo.com/were-going-to-lose-fast-us-air-force-...
- eloisius 6y agoKeep in mind that regardless of who was in power, style of government, and everything else, Japan and China have antagonized each other for about 800 years. Japan is a net importer of food and raw materials. Taiwan sits in the middle of important shipping routes. Letting China take Taiwan would be national suicide for Japan.
- tlear 6y agoAh yes short victorious war. Because taking over an island is so easy. Chinese economy is also completely dependent on imports. US does not need sail its carriers to Taiwan, it needs to park half a dozen attack subs on Chinese trade routes. Same applies to Taiwanese program to build indigenous electric subs with help of Japan, once even few those are complete the equation changes completely. PRC has no chance in hell for an amphibious landing operation in Taiwan. So this is going to take quite a while. Having said that US resolve switches around every 4 years so given a proper timing they might sit it out. However there are some interesting consequences. Japan will test a nuclear weapon and a delivery system and commence crash manufacturing program to assemble an arsenal in matter of weeks. US will get kicked out from Okinawa and mainland Japan and most likely a containment alliance between India, Japan and Australia will become not just paper but more like NATO with Joint command, staff, plans etc. I wonder what Vietnam will do, lets hope for their sake they have a secret nuclear program.
- mokash 6y agoHong Kong is done.
- tibbydudeza 6y agoIt was done the moment the 99 year lease ran out and the UK handed it back , the Chinese would not tolerate a visible relic of the Opium wars being dictated to by foreigners i.e 2047 Basic Law guarantee. They tore up the agreement when it became expedient (they declared "historical document of no significance") to do so.
- BossingAround 6y agoI wanted to write "sad day for Hong Kong", but I realized it's been more like a sad year and a half for HK, if not longer. One wonders how long can CCP keep doing the same thing again and again. I guess we shall see. My heart goes to those in HK.
- ekianjo 6y ago> I wanted to write "sad day for Hong Kong", but I realized it's been more like a sad year and a half for HK, if not longer. Unfortunately the west stopped caring HK right as the COVID19 situation started, and barely got any press since then.
- pyinstallwoes 6y agoThe timing, just a coincidence some say.
- hrktb 6y agoI don’t know how most people view it, but caring for the people in HK became for me a plea for them to get out, because there seems to be no way left for them to keep integrity while still living in their home. Following the events was sheer pain, and at some point you have to cut the stream because it really was despair pouring in news after news.
- alau1218 6y agoThe liberal open Hong Kong we used to know has died in 2020, the year they passed the national security law. Elites and professionals in Hong Kong are thinking where to move their families to and those chose to stay have to accept they are now no difference than an ordinary mainland Chinese citizen. CCP did not and will not keep any of their promises. All the Sino-UK agreement and the promise of 'One country Two systems' are simply jokes to CCP. The world needs to realize the CCP is a truly evil party and if let uncountered, it would eventually engulf the whole liberal, democratic western socieites.
- dschuler 6y ago
- kleiba 6y agoWell, what can you expect from a country that ranks among the lowest in international measurements of civil liberties, government transparency, freedom of the press, freedom of religion and ethnic minorities?
- shanghaikid 6y agoPeople have never been china, talks like a china/CCP expert.
- L-four 6y agoChina/CCP isn't exactly friendly to foreigners. It's near impossible to become a Chinese citizen.
- shanghaikid 6y agoYou can travel there, talk to people, look use your own eyes.
- christophilus 6y agoI’ve been there and looked with my own eyes. The PRC is a menace.
- shanghaikid 6y agoWhat is that, show it.
- christophilus 6y agoWell, if you’re really interested in more info, there’s a place online where free speech and discourse happen, and they often discuss this very topic. Here’s one such thread[0]. More seriously, see any discussion on Tibetan Buddhism, underground Catholicism, underground Protestantism, Islam in western China, Winnie the Pooh, letters found in Halloween decorations, Taiwanese airspace, forced labor, etc. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26632065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26632065
- ninjin 6y agoAll right, how about this. Instead of parroting a common nationalist talking point (that is common across the globe) that is little more than a knee-jerk reaction to allow for blanket dismissal of criticism, how about you raise the level of the discussion by naming a set of experts on the PRC with a variety of positive/negative perspectives that you do recognise as qualified to speak on this subject?
- jariel 6y ago$43 Billion has moved out to Canada alone. Imagine how much has gone elsewhere [1]. It will be very interesting to see if the rest of the world allows Hong Kong to maintain it's independent financial status or if HK is considered 'China'. [1] https://nationalpost.com/news/world/a-record-flight-of-capital-43-6-billion-from-hong-kong-to-canada-as-china-cracks-down https://nationalpost.com/news/world/a-record-flight-of-capit...
- mimikatz 6y agoAmerica should allow open immigration from Hong Kong for a year. China by all rights has a claim to the land. But the people who want freedom should have it and we should take them in.
- hkai 6y agoIf my friends are any indication, most would be hesitant to move to the US due to physical safety issues in American streets.
- mimikatz 6y agoThat fear is overblown due to media focus. Attacks against Asians happen, but not in numbers that should make anyone hesitant to live here. If the media publicized every vending machine that crushed someone people would be scared of them, but the reality is different
- GuB-42 6y agoI traveled to Hong-Kong right in the middle of protests and I actually felt much safer than in the US and my home country (France), and I am a white guy. It is ironic when protesters chanted "Hong-Kong is not safe", these people probably never went to the US or Europe, let alone Africa... I mean just look at here: https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Hong-Kong/United-States/Crime https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Hong-Kong/... Basically safer by an order of magnitude. It is not just the media, many western countries are unacceptably unsafe relative to their wealth and that includes the US. I mean, when you have to lock a bike with a lock that is heavier and more expensive than the bike itself, there is a problem. Going to low-crime country is always a pleasure and I would understand Hong-Kongers for refusing to leave for that reason.
- woutr_be 6y agoFrom what I can tell, most HKers are looking at Canada, UK or Australia. I haven't really heard anyone talking about moving to the US.
- archibaldJ 6y agoWhenever you advise a ruler in the way of Tao, Counsel him not to use force to conquer the universe. For this would only cause resistance. Thorn bushes spring up wherever the army has passed. Lean years follow in the wake of a great war. Just do what needs to be done. Never take advantage of power. Achieve results, Because this is the natural way. Achieve results, But not through violence. Force is followed by loss of strength. This is not the way of Tao. That which goes against the Tao comes to an early end. -Lao Tzu
- Daho0n 6y agoSo your opinion is HK became awful (thorns, weak) because of British imperialism? Seems to me this doesn't make any sense otherwise in context. Force is what took it from China and force is what was used in an attempt to keep status quo.
- archibaldJ 6y agoIt's interesting how my remark on CCP was quite appreciated with upvotes before it was swarmed with downvotes by people like you who impetuously jumped the conclusion shark too quickly. Perchance there is an empirical relationship when a population grows to a sufficiently large n that sneakiness would be rightfully ignored as a function of implicitness, which is perhaps the trajectory in which hn-as-a-community is embracing a more reddit-ish sentiment. Hmm I guess it's a feature and not a bug?
- ngcc_hk 6y agoIf china can get away with it, just like if Burma/Myanmar army can get away with its ... Anyway it has been so for several thousands years of totalitarian rules. There is no way out of that horrible culture. Hong Kong showed them a more liberal way of life. Taiwan showed them the more Democratic way of life. Instead they choose to use power and a system with no succession rule. It is karma of that culture. An ever looping of bad luck, prosperity then chaos. Cry my beloved city.
- quink 6y agoThe CCP has now been in control of China for essentially everyone's living memory yet apparently the masses are still uneducated enough, too volatile, too vindictive and wild to support a democracy. Plus, how could the CCP not be elected if it's that great, after all? Either the people of China, even after a lifetime rule by the great CCP, are somehow inherently worse by those above criteria than those in all functioning democracies or they're being played like a fiddle, gaslit like no one's ever been gaslit before.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- rado 6y agoCritics argue the law effectively marks the end of democracy. The end of what? Outrage culture strikes again. They never had democracy.
- robjan 6y agoThe reason these changes happened today was that there was a very real chance that pro-democracy figures would win the election in a system which was rigged against them. This is also why essentially all of the pro-democracy candidates were arrested under the National Security Law. They were probably going to win the LegCo and would have had the power to force the Chief Executive to resign.
- mikkelam 6y agoI've personally started to avoid China as much as possible. I know it's hard but if world leaders won't strike, citizens must do their part. Buy local/non-chinese and avoid their products. This is the best way to strike them. The citizens of China are only tolerating the CCP due to continuing growth. When the economic benefits stop rolling, people will start speaking up against the tyranny. Hopefully this happens before it's too late.
- quink 6y ago> When the economic benefits stop rolling, people will start speaking up against the tyranny. No they won't. They've been gaslit, backed by the supposed evidence of thousands of years of history, that they themselves, though more so the uneducated rural population, are a violent, vindictive, power-hungry sort and that any overthrow would cost millions and millions of lives... and thus make the economy worse. And the gaslighting will only get stronger should the economy ever go south. I mean, Hong Kong is the greatest thing that could happen to them. People in Hong Kong a bit upset with the Communist Party? Massive civil unrest in Hong Kong, helped of course by foreign agitators (see "Century of Humiliation" for that narrative). No way do we want that in China, no siree! Put the violent mobs on every front page in China. The situation in Hong Kong is one of the best things that could ever possibly happen to the CCP. Does it matter whether there's provocateurs? Does it matter if there's foreign agitators for real? Not one bit. All you need is pictures of things on fire or teargas and the CCP rules for another decade through the stability it and so many preceding dynasties represented. Does it matter if any of it is true? Of course not.
- hdchenhao 6y agoProud of China, so many comments, ha ha ha！！！
- eric144 6y agoThose "patriots" with direct relatives holding foreign passports or studying abroad tell us to love "our country". I laugh out loud with tears.
- dang 6y agoAll: China-geopolitics threads on HN jumped the shark years ago; now they're jumping the ocean the shark is in. This is damaging HN, which is for curious conversation, not flamewar. What to do? Perhaps more explicit instructions will help. I've put together the following algorithm. Bug reports and pull requests are welcome. Before you comment on a topic like this, please follow these simple steps: (1) Read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, which describes the intended use of HN. (2) If you understand that flamebait, name-calling, ideological rhetoric, nationalistic rhetoric, and flamewar are off topic on HN regardless of how right you are or feel you are, go to step 3. Otherwise go to step 1. (3) If you understand that anything which has been repeated many times is off topic here (example: "$x is evil" for any popular or unpopular $x), go to step 4. Otherwise please see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... and then go to step 1. (4) If you think I might be posting this because I'm secretly a foreign agent, communist, racist, or $x-sympathizer, go to step 1. (5) You now have enough information to know whether or not you want to use HN as intended. If you do, great! skip the remaining steps. If you don't, proceed to step 6. (6) It's ok if you don't want to use HN as intended, but in that case please don't damage HN by posting to it. This ecosystem is fragile and needs protecting. You wouldn't drop a lit match in a dry forest, dump engine oil in a mountain lake, or litter in a city park, so please don't do the equivalent here. Plenty of other platforms are designed for engagement-above-all and will welcome your posts. Pick one of those and comment there instead. HN isn't optimized for engagement—it's for curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). That's a softer and more delicate feeling than the ones which drive internet flamewars, and it requires a baseline of kindness, openness, and respect in order to function. Not engaging is always an option here, and not engaging in ways that destroy the commons is a necessity. Before you hit "add comment" or "reply", ask yourself "is curiosity what I am feeling right now?" If the answer is no, please wait for that to change.