8 ms·

Stallman's return denounced by the EFF, Tor, Mozilla, and the creator of Rust

34 points by MilnerRoute 6y ago

caeril 6y ago
FWIW, it's not just Hoare. It seems that nearly the entirety of the Rust community, people like Klabnik, Cantrill, etc, are solidly Woke. Which is mildly funny, since one of the early guests of On The Metal, Jonathan Blow, is decidedly anti-woke. The kind of guy who definitely would have been fired from Joyent for improper pronoun usage. Fortunately, the interview was very good (as is the case with nearly every OTM episode!) and stayed away from community politics.
dexen 6y ago
It's time for a new movement, a new cultural and legal framework that will protect key project founders and contributors from undue pressure from angry mobs on twitter and other latecomers. Maybe RMS will start something on his own, maybe a new person will step up. Either way, look out for one such and give it support - progress in software engineering, and maintaining freedom to hack depends on it. re-posting an earlier comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23690039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23690039) This. The underground in underground programming refers to maintaining low visibility, as to present low target silhouette. Additional benefit is not attracting too many participants that are in it for the clout, rather than for solving problems & good engineering. Open Source is no longer sufficient for software freedom; the current 'battlefield' is maintaining security from activist pressure or gradual take-over.
bitcharmer 6y ago
Cancel culture still getting stronger. More momentum for the pendulum when the trends bounce back, I guess.
- api 6y ago
  While I think the reaction to Stallman was excessive, I am really tired of the "cancel culture" term. It gives the impression that this is somehow new, when "cancel culture" is one of those things that has existed since there was more than one human. There has never been a time or a society where saying certain things would not bring at the very least calls for you to be "cancelled." In many other times and places it'll get you imprisoned or killed. Our society is extremely liberal when it comes to speech compared to the historical and global norm. Here's an example from the Bush II era: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dixie-chicks-were-cancelled-criticizing-130039511.html https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dixie-chicks-were-cancelled-... BTW I feel the same way about "fake news." It's another thing that is absolutely not new.
  - gorjusborg 6y ago
    For me the term seems useful. Cancel culture as a concept is less about the newness of ostracizing people and more about an awakening in the public about the power anonymous voices on the web can be in aggregate. We probably shouldn't be surprised that such power would be abused as it is discovered in a new form. We should be able to give the phenomenon a name so we can discuss it.
    - Jaepa 6y ago
      I kind of feel like cancel culture minimizes the issue by allowing people to talk not effect while completely skirting around the cause. Saying was he was removed due to public backlash due to history of sexist behavior, and discrimination is much hard to defend then the reductive was cancelled. EDIT The recent Suess books case is kind of a prime example of this. Since cancelled doesn't have a strict definition saying the books were cancelled arguably not entirely wrong. But misses the who, what, & why of it. (e.g the publisher stopped printing select low selling books that included offensive outdated stereotypes)
      - gorjusborg 6y ago
        That's a fair point, and I think I agree. My stance was that 'cancel culture' as a term seems most often used to decry the use of the power of mob rule online. I think the criticism is fair, and we should be able to discuss the effects of such a dynamic. I have also seen what I think you are describing, which is a sweeping under the rug of real issues underlying such an outcry, by dismissing it as 'just cancel culture'.
  - blagie 6y ago
    Cancel culture was never this bad or this random. The Internet has amplified its impact a thousandfold.
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    I would also say that nobody would ever frame fighting for the right to fire gay people, or the right to refuse to sign marriage certificates as cancellation.
- cool_dude85 6y ago
  A question for those who are against so-called "cancel culture": are there any statements from someone like RMS that, in your mind, should result in the FSF kicking him off their board? If he became a Holocaust denialist, or joined NAMBLA, should the FSF keep him on their board?
rurban 6y ago
Synopsis: The pro-Stallman letter had 3,632 individual signers The anti-Stallman letter had 2,812 individual signers The most ironic outrage letter is by the EFF/FSFE, which is the only organization which actually did what they accuse rms of, sexism at the workplace. https://fsfellowship.eu/court-case-fsfe-women-and-volunteers-face-modern-day-slavery/ https://fsfellowship.eu/court-case-fsfe-women-and-volunteers... The other well known rms attacker is also long known as harasser: Molly De Blanc https://debian.community/google-influence-free-open-source-software-community-threats-sanctions-bullying/ https://debian.community/google-influence-free-open-source-s...
katmannthree 6y ago
Even ignoring the things he's currently in hot water for Stallman is a terrible choice as the face of a movement. As attested to by many who have spent time with him in person, his social skills are horrendous. There's a video of him at a talk, picking crap off his bare foot and eating it. He has some good opinions specifically on computer software, but as a person in general he's seriously lacking. Is this really the best we can do?
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  What he picks to eat or writes on his personal website is completely irrelevant: his social skills were sufficient to create a planet-wide movement and completely change the software development industry. Since you think we can do better, please, name a better candidate.
  - zenethian 6y ago
    I'm not sure that's true. He didn't invent open source, and while he should be credited with being an early pioneer, he was largely ignored for decades until he got /just/ enough people onboard to find someone personable enough to get it to catch on in the corporate world, which then gets the attention of marketing.... and that's how we got to today. Not just by his "social skills" (or lack thereof) alone.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      No. No. No. This is a complete misrepresentation of the events. Stallman created a GNU project which culminated in the GNU/Linux OS. His contribution is far more important that that of Torvalds, because by the time linux kernel appeared, the emergence of GNU-licensed kernel for GNU OS was inevitable. Had Linux been licensed differently, it would not gain a fraction of traction it received licensed under GPL, and the GNU project would come up with something anyway. They just didn't need it after they had one good kernel. So, without Torvalds ot would have been someone else. Without Stallman, there would be no GNU. All of this happened a decade before corporations started to take notice. By the time it happened, a great number of developers contributed to the GNU project and have created a lot of applications.
camdenlock 6y ago
Glad to see comments here in favor of openness. Starting to see encouraging little signs like this of the tide turning against the recent push for censorship/deplatforming/cancellation in so many spaces.
xhkkffbf 6y ago
Stallman's problem is that he committed the wrong atrocity. The EFF, for instance, has been running to the barricades to support Chelsea Manning's right to be a part of the EFF. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/02/military-prison-blocks-chelsea-manning-reading-eff-blog-posts https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/02/military-prison-blocks... If Manning wanted to file a pull request for some project, I'm sure the EFF would be out there fighting to enable it. I wouldn't be surprised to find the same support for restorative justice from the people at Firefox and Tor. (Isn't the Rust project just an offshoot of Firefox anyway?) The point is that anyone who believes in the principles of restorative justice and hates overpolicing should be fighting to make it easier for Richard Stallman to rejoin the FSF (and some of the other projects too.)
kube-system 6y ago
Most people seem to be arguing about the contents of what RMS said or didn't say, his legal/technical contributions, etc... but they are all missing the point. Public leadership is a different role than simply being a thinker or a developer, and it has different requirements and expectations. As the free-software movement grew out of niche and into the mainstream, RMS "Peter Principled" himself out of his own job.
- belorn 6y ago
  Public leadership is a different role, which is why I have zero trust in the following organizations leadership except for technical contributions (by order of worst offenders in regard to politics outside the scope of the technology). Mozilla. Tor. Wikipedia. Stackexchange. Linux. Python. OSI. OpenBSD. Coreboot. Ubuntu. Neither has leaders that bring trust to their project. Many of them has caused large group of contributors to exist the project because of actions and statement outside the mission scope. The leadership of all of them should be removed and replaced, and yet the projects are at the same time still functional despite their leaders lack.
  - loopz 6y ago
    You can't claw down leaders without tearing down the foundations. The mob is just ignorant how things really work.
  - einpoklum 6y ago
    Agree with you at least about those organizations I have some knowledge and experience with: * The Mozilla foundation has an atrocious code of conduct, which allows for people to be ousted through secret trials based on secret complaints. And of course, is vague enough to be interpreted so as to disallow almost any oppositionary conduct. (Due disclosure: I was subjected to such measures as a Thunderbird contributor) * Wikipedia: Shady elements in management and ownership, see: https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/11/meet-wikipedias-ayn-rand-loving-founder-and-wikimedia-foundations-regime-change-operative-ceo/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/11/meet-wikipedias-ayn-rand-... * StackExchange: It's complicated, but basically the company owning the network has exhibited autocratic tendencies, and instead of anyone answering for their unjustifiable acts, there's been a bunch of gaslighting and diversion. Some very partial amends have been made. For the state of affairs at the heat of the crisis, see: https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/333965/196834 https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/333965/196834 for example.
blagie 6y ago
This is exactly why I never want to be famous. I've done stupid things in my life. Most people have. Not the same kind of stupid as Stallman, but stupid. At some point, any of those things may become politically incorrect, and lead to a takedown. If this continues, the only people dumb enough to be famous will be power-hungry jerks. My main life's work was a not-for-profit which did some good. It's credited to a power-hungry jerk. More power to him. For me, it's better him famous than me, and good for me. For society, not so good. You've got a dishonest power-hungry jerk making self-serving decisions on all sorts of key policy-setting bodies, because he's famous.
- danaris 6y ago
  I think the problem is not so much "having done stupid things," but in general "doing stupid things, refusing to apologize, and doubling down when called out on them."
  - sildur 6y ago
    > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it. > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why. https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September... I'm eagerly waiting for your apology.
    - danaris 6y ago
      Good that he's come to partially recognize where the problem is. If pedophilia apologism were the only reason people wanted RMS out, then you might have a point. Now maybe he can work on not being an asshole in 65535 other ways.
      - blagie 6y ago
zwieback 6y ago
What's up with all those Russian-sounding first names in the list of RMS supporters? Serious imbalance.
- b0sk 6y ago
  I discovered the same thing. It seems literally a clash of 2 cultures.
- Melchizedek 6y ago
  I think the dislike of cancel culture is stronger in Russia and Eastern Europe because it reminds people so much about Communism.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > I think the dislike of cancel culture is stronger in Russia Because “cancel culture” is a propaganda boogeyman invented by (or at least, used on behalf of) the political faction in the US that has been somewhere between useful idiots for and actively collaborating with Russian propagandists for the last half-decade.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  I think that coming from a country with a rich tradition of totalitarian brainwashing and political cleansing, we are more sensitive to hypocritical self-righteousness and virtue signalling.
- nathanaldensr 6y ago
  Maybe you should talk to them and find out.
- buisi 6y ago
  According to messages on their Github, they theorize that Russian speaking individuals are less likely to fear for their careers, as a consequence of signing that letter, even if they otherwise support it.
- d_tr 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
s9w 6y ago
It's good life advice to do the opposite what these people want.
haunter 6y ago
Cancel-as-a-service sounds like a good idea. Like a company checking the whole off and online history of someone, and then just plant some seeds on Twitter, Reddit, Tumblr etc. to make it working. You can pretty much do it almost 100% to be seen as something organic. Tbh I'm pretty sure some people do this already.
- riskneutral 6y ago
  Do you think maybe it would also be a good idea to have a society with laws and justice, where people have rights and cannot have their lives taken away by an angry mob without any due process? Just a thought.
notaspecialist 6y ago
Since this hit the newswaves, I've read both sides, and investigated the claims from both sides. Interesting.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
thro1 6y ago
https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ and https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ , just impression. So far no organizations in support of RMS, only people (without fear ??).. The other side.. how many of those organizations then are dependent somehow - on founding, corporations, etc. ? Is it about easing* (control) to make some ocean bloody (which now is open and blue**), and RMS (who made it blue) is not dead yet? * Divide And Conquer ** Blue Ocean Strategy
underseacables 6y ago
Cancel culture seems to point to the extreme, as in there is no return, there is no atonement, and there can never be forgiveness. I think that completely goes against the general thinking of right and wrong, and has turned cancel culture into a weapon to permanently ostracize people, rather than to correct a perceived wrong.

34 points by MilnerRoute 6y ago

FWIW, it's not just Hoare. It seems that nearly the entirety of the Rust community, people like Klabnik, Cantrill, etc, are solidly Woke. Which is mildly funny, since one of the early guests of On The Metal, Jonathan Blow, is decidedly anti-woke. The kind of guy who definitely would have been fired from Joyent for improper pronoun usage. Fortunately, the interview was very good (as is the case with nearly every OTM episode!) and stayed away from community politics.

dexen 6y ago

It's time for a new movement, a new cultural and legal framework that will protect key project founders and contributors from undue pressure from angry mobs on twitter and other latecomers. Maybe RMS will start something on his own, maybe a new person will step up. Either way, look out for one such and give it support - progress in software engineering, and maintaining freedom to hack depends on it. re-posting an earlier comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23690039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23690039) This. The underground in underground programming refers to maintaining low visibility, as to present low target silhouette. Additional benefit is not attracting too many participants that are in it for the clout, rather than for solving problems & good engineering. Open Source is no longer sufficient for software freedom; the current 'battlefield' is maintaining security from activist pressure or gradual take-over.

bitcharmer 6y ago

Cancel culture still getting stronger. More momentum for the pendulum when the trends bounce back, I guess.

api 6y ago
While I think the reaction to Stallman was excessive, I am really tired of the "cancel culture" term. It gives the impression that this is somehow new, when "cancel culture" is one of those things that has existed since there was more than one human. There has never been a time or a society where saying certain things would not bring at the very least calls for you to be "cancelled." In many other times and places it'll get you imprisoned or killed. Our society is extremely liberal when it comes to speech compared to the historical and global norm. Here's an example from the Bush II era: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dixie-chicks-were-cancelled-criticizing-130039511.html https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dixie-chicks-were-cancelled-... BTW I feel the same way about "fake news." It's another thing that is absolutely not new.
- gorjusborg 6y ago
  For me the term seems useful. Cancel culture as a concept is less about the newness of ostracizing people and more about an awakening in the public about the power anonymous voices on the web can be in aggregate. We probably shouldn't be surprised that such power would be abused as it is discovered in a new form. We should be able to give the phenomenon a name so we can discuss it.
  - Jaepa 6y ago
    I kind of feel like cancel culture minimizes the issue by allowing people to talk not effect while completely skirting around the cause. Saying was he was removed due to public backlash due to history of sexist behavior, and discrimination is much hard to defend then the reductive was cancelled. EDIT The recent Suess books case is kind of a prime example of this. Since cancelled doesn't have a strict definition saying the books were cancelled arguably not entirely wrong. But misses the who, what, & why of it. (e.g the publisher stopped printing select low selling books that included offensive outdated stereotypes)
    - gorjusborg 6y ago
      That's a fair point, and I think I agree. My stance was that 'cancel culture' as a term seems most often used to decry the use of the power of mob rule online. I think the criticism is fair, and we should be able to discuss the effects of such a dynamic. I have also seen what I think you are describing, which is a sweeping under the rug of real issues underlying such an outcry, by dismissing it as 'just cancel culture'.
- blagie 6y ago
  Cancel culture was never this bad or this random. The Internet has amplified its impact a thousandfold.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  I would also say that nobody would ever frame fighting for the right to fire gay people, or the right to refuse to sign marriage certificates as cancellation.
cool_dude85 6y ago
A question for those who are against so-called "cancel culture": are there any statements from someone like RMS that, in your mind, should result in the FSF kicking him off their board? If he became a Holocaust denialist, or joined NAMBLA, should the FSF keep him on their board?

rurban 6y ago

Synopsis: The pro-Stallman letter had 3,632 individual signers The anti-Stallman letter had 2,812 individual signers The most ironic outrage letter is by the EFF/FSFE, which is the only organization which actually did what they accuse rms of, sexism at the workplace. https://fsfellowship.eu/court-case-fsfe-women-and-volunteers-face-modern-day-slavery/ https://fsfellowship.eu/court-case-fsfe-women-and-volunteers... The other well known rms attacker is also long known as harasser: Molly De Blanc https://debian.community/google-influence-free-open-source-software-community-threats-sanctions-bullying/ https://debian.community/google-influence-free-open-source-s...

katmannthree 6y ago

Even ignoring the things he's currently in hot water for Stallman is a terrible choice as the face of a movement. As attested to by many who have spent time with him in person, his social skills are horrendous. There's a video of him at a talk, picking crap off his bare foot and eating it. He has some good opinions specifically on computer software, but as a person in general he's seriously lacking. Is this really the best we can do?

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
What he picks to eat or writes on his personal website is completely irrelevant: his social skills were sufficient to create a planet-wide movement and completely change the software development industry. Since you think we can do better, please, name a better candidate.
- zenethian 6y ago
  I'm not sure that's true. He didn't invent open source, and while he should be credited with being an early pioneer, he was largely ignored for decades until he got /just/ enough people onboard to find someone personable enough to get it to catch on in the corporate world, which then gets the attention of marketing.... and that's how we got to today. Not just by his "social skills" (or lack thereof) alone.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    No. No. No. This is a complete misrepresentation of the events. Stallman created a GNU project which culminated in the GNU/Linux OS. His contribution is far more important that that of Torvalds, because by the time linux kernel appeared, the emergence of GNU-licensed kernel for GNU OS was inevitable. Had Linux been licensed differently, it would not gain a fraction of traction it received licensed under GPL, and the GNU project would come up with something anyway. They just didn't need it after they had one good kernel. So, without Torvalds ot would have been someone else. Without Stallman, there would be no GNU. All of this happened a decade before corporations started to take notice. By the time it happened, a great number of developers contributed to the GNU project and have created a lot of applications.

camdenlock 6y ago

Glad to see comments here in favor of openness. Starting to see encouraging little signs like this of the tide turning against the recent push for censorship/deplatforming/cancellation in so many spaces.

xhkkffbf 6y ago

Stallman's problem is that he committed the wrong atrocity. The EFF, for instance, has been running to the barricades to support Chelsea Manning's right to be a part of the EFF. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/02/military-prison-blocks-chelsea-manning-reading-eff-blog-posts https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/02/military-prison-blocks... If Manning wanted to file a pull request for some project, I'm sure the EFF would be out there fighting to enable it. I wouldn't be surprised to find the same support for restorative justice from the people at Firefox and Tor. (Isn't the Rust project just an offshoot of Firefox anyway?) The point is that anyone who believes in the principles of restorative justice and hates overpolicing should be fighting to make it easier for Richard Stallman to rejoin the FSF (and some of the other projects too.)

kube-system 6y ago

Most people seem to be arguing about the contents of what RMS said or didn't say, his legal/technical contributions, etc... but they are all missing the point. Public leadership is a different role than simply being a thinker or a developer, and it has different requirements and expectations. As the free-software movement grew out of niche and into the mainstream, RMS "Peter Principled" himself out of his own job.

belorn 6y ago
Public leadership is a different role, which is why I have zero trust in the following organizations leadership except for technical contributions (by order of worst offenders in regard to politics outside the scope of the technology). Mozilla. Tor. Wikipedia. Stackexchange. Linux. Python. OSI. OpenBSD. Coreboot. Ubuntu. Neither has leaders that bring trust to their project. Many of them has caused large group of contributors to exist the project because of actions and statement outside the mission scope. The leadership of all of them should be removed and replaced, and yet the projects are at the same time still functional despite their leaders lack.
- loopz 6y ago
  You can't claw down leaders without tearing down the foundations. The mob is just ignorant how things really work.
- einpoklum 6y ago
  Agree with you at least about those organizations I have some knowledge and experience with: * The Mozilla foundation has an atrocious code of conduct, which allows for people to be ousted through secret trials based on secret complaints. And of course, is vague enough to be interpreted so as to disallow almost any oppositionary conduct. (Due disclosure: I was subjected to such measures as a Thunderbird contributor) * Wikipedia: Shady elements in management and ownership, see: https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/11/meet-wikipedias-ayn-rand-loving-founder-and-wikimedia-foundations-regime-change-operative-ceo/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/11/meet-wikipedias-ayn-rand-... * StackExchange: It's complicated, but basically the company owning the network has exhibited autocratic tendencies, and instead of anyone answering for their unjustifiable acts, there's been a bunch of gaslighting and diversion. Some very partial amends have been made. For the state of affairs at the heat of the crisis, see: https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/333965/196834 https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/333965/196834 for example.

blagie 6y ago

This is exactly why I never want to be famous. I've done stupid things in my life. Most people have. Not the same kind of stupid as Stallman, but stupid. At some point, any of those things may become politically incorrect, and lead to a takedown. If this continues, the only people dumb enough to be famous will be power-hungry jerks. My main life's work was a not-for-profit which did some good. It's credited to a power-hungry jerk. More power to him. For me, it's better him famous than me, and good for me. For society, not so good. You've got a dishonest power-hungry jerk making self-serving decisions on all sorts of key policy-setting bodies, because he's famous.

danaris 6y ago
I think the problem is not so much "having done stupid things," but in general "doing stupid things, refusing to apologize, and doubling down when called out on them."
- sildur 6y ago
  > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it. > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why. https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September... I'm eagerly waiting for your apology.
  - danaris 6y ago
    Good that he's come to partially recognize where the problem is. If pedophilia apologism were the only reason people wanted RMS out, then you might have a point. Now maybe he can work on not being an asshole in 65535 other ways.
    - blagie 6y ago

zwieback 6y ago

What's up with all those Russian-sounding first names in the list of RMS supporters? Serious imbalance.

b0sk 6y ago
I discovered the same thing. It seems literally a clash of 2 cultures.
Melchizedek 6y ago
I think the dislike of cancel culture is stronger in Russia and Eastern Europe because it reminds people so much about Communism.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > I think the dislike of cancel culture is stronger in Russia Because “cancel culture” is a propaganda boogeyman invented by (or at least, used on behalf of) the political faction in the US that has been somewhere between useful idiots for and actively collaborating with Russian propagandists for the last half-decade.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
I think that coming from a country with a rich tradition of totalitarian brainwashing and political cleansing, we are more sensitive to hypocritical self-righteousness and virtue signalling.
nathanaldensr 6y ago
Maybe you should talk to them and find out.
buisi 6y ago
According to messages on their Github, they theorize that Russian speaking individuals are less likely to fear for their careers, as a consequence of signing that letter, even if they otherwise support it.
d_tr 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

s9w 6y ago

It's good life advice to do the opposite what these people want.

haunter 6y ago

Cancel-as-a-service sounds like a good idea. Like a company checking the whole off and online history of someone, and then just plant some seeds on Twitter, Reddit, Tumblr etc. to make it working. You can pretty much do it almost 100% to be seen as something organic. Tbh I'm pretty sure some people do this already.

riskneutral 6y ago
Do you think maybe it would also be a good idea to have a society with laws and justice, where people have rights and cannot have their lives taken away by an angry mob without any due process? Just a thought.

notaspecialist 6y ago

Since this hit the newswaves, I've read both sides, and investigated the claims from both sides. Interesting.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

thro1 6y ago

https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ and https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ , just impression. So far no organizations in support of RMS, only people (without fear ??).. The other side.. how many of those organizations then are dependent somehow - on founding, corporations, etc. ? Is it about easing* (control) to make some ocean bloody (which now is open and blue**), and RMS (who made it blue) is not dead yet? * Divide And Conquer ** Blue Ocean Strategy

underseacables 6y ago

Cancel culture seems to point to the extreme, as in there is no return, there is no atonement, and there can never be forgiveness. I think that completely goes against the general thinking of right and wrong, and has turned cancel culture into a weapon to permanently ostracize people, rather than to correct a perceived wrong.