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Netgate doesn't exactly have the best reputation as it is. There is a reason there's a growing push of people leaving pfSense for OPNsense. Remember when they

Netgate doesn't exactly have the best reputation as it is. There is a reason there's a growing push of people leaving pfSense for OPNsense. Remember when they bought their competitor's domain and put up this? http://web.archive.org/web/20160314132836/http:/www.opnsense.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20160314132836/http:/www.opnsense...

TavsiE9s 6y ago
They were supposedly also squatting r/OPNSense, which is why the official subreddit is r/OPNsenseFirewall. Just checked: r/opnsense is a private community The moderators of r/opnsense have set this community to private. Only approved members can view and take part in its discussions.
- gonzo 6y ago
  Not Netgate
zokier 6y ago
Kinda feel bad for them here though because they did things initially pretty much exactly right: paid real money to a developer with reasonable credentials to work in upstream to develop this feature with apparently best of intentions. That is pretty much textbook example how corporations can participate in open source (without in-house developers). And then it somehow blew on their face. The response then from Netgate was very much on-brand, they indeed have a history of colorful PR. And of course they are ultimately responsible for things they put their name on. But this also highlights how difficult participating in open source can be.
- busterarm 6y ago
  Netgate isn't exactly your average open source contributor either. In fact, their product is very much closed source. Even the areas of it that have been "open" have largely hidden, incomplete and non-buildable for the longest. It's really a mixed bag. They pay for a bit of development but throw their weight around in ways that are harmful to the project.
  - zokier 6y ago
    That's why its sad that this time when they seemingly behaved mostly like good citizen it didn't work out very well especially for them.
- tw04 6y ago
  I don't know, I've never heard of Arm or NetApp or Netflix having these issues. They just quietly contribute both employee time and financially to the FreeBSD project without fanfare (I guess at times Netflix does blog about their contributions but not in the same look-at-me way). Netgate seems to want to brag about their contributions (despite the fact they don't even show up on the foundation page) while also somehow not taking any responsibility for when they screw up. https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-donors/donors/?donationYear=2020 https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-donors/donors/?donationYea...
  - stonogo 6y ago
    Netflix presents their FreeBSD work at FOSDEM fairly often. They're usually good technical talks that don't come off as PR.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Which makes sense. The type of person Netflix wants to know about their FreeBSD contributions is the type of technical person that will be impressed by non-PR technical talks and think "I want to work with this guy". The average Netflix customer shouldn't care at all about the technical details of the background so doing non-technical PR wouldn't gain anything.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- na85 6y ago
  >But this also highlights how difficult participating in open source can be. I dunno, I was shopping around for network appliances and I considered a netgate box until I saw how Netgate representatives conduct themselves on their reddit. Participating in open source doesn't need to be difficult; a modicum of humility is all it ought to take but the Netgate folks seem arrogant an abrasive pretty much as their default position. Gave my money to someone else instead.
  - newsclues 6y ago
    Who did you give your money to instead of Netgate?
    - na85 6y ago
      Sadly, Ubiquiti. Since I was already buying access points from them I decided open source wasn't worth dealing with assholes and just bought an edge router x
- xoa 6y ago
  >Kinda feel bad for them here though because they did things initially pretty much exactly right: paid real money to a developer with reasonable credentials to work in upstream to develop this feature with apparently best of intentions. That is pretty much textbook example how corporations can participate in open source (without in-house developers). I mean, I see what you're saying, but I can't 100% agree with this. As a textbook example, I still remember way back when Apple was getting started with KHTML and what would eventually become WebCore and WebKit, and they got quite a lot of heat for a while early on for just doing big fat block code dumps without following project procedures and such. "Contributions welcome" is true for anyone, but there is an implicit (and often these days explicit for larger projects) "...as long as you follow our code standards, communicate, put in the basic effort to do a professional job, etc". Contributions don't have to be perfect but there needs to be some meat there or it's just a waste of everyone's time. Even for a big corp doing big work, just "throwing code over the fence" so to speak often is not appreciated. Netgate hired him, so they were ultimately responsible. They apparently did a very, very poor job of both checking on him and supporting him, which is on them. They didn't see about coordinating with the actual guy who created the entire thing. They didn't do a basic sanity check of what he'd finished before trying to have it pushed right to main, and they were aggressive about deploying a security product that was really really shoddy and in context quite dangerous right out to the general public. And then they were complete dicks about even relatively low-key efforts to try to fix it with as much face saved all around, too much even. I'm sorry, but that doesn't actually seem like a great example of how corps can participate productively. Nor do I honestly think it "highlights how difficult participating in open source can be". Can't just expect unlimited gratitude purely for volunteering something useless/dangerous.
- ksec 6y ago
  >paid real money to a developer with reasonable credentials to work in upstream to develop this feature with apparently best of intentions. Yes, but Netgate's TSNR is based on Linux. So it seems they will be pivoting to Linux, or at least have less emphasis on FreeBSD. My guess is that going forward there will be less money and participation going to FreeBSD from Netgate. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing depends on your perspective.
  - gonzo 6y ago
    TNSR is really based in VPP, Linux is more of a platform than the actual functionality. Our commitment to FreeBSD continues unabated.
- knz_ 6y ago
  The person they hired to do this work (Kip Macy) is a massive POS. https://abcnews.go.com/US/exclusive-landlord-hell-defends-terrorizing-apartment-tenants/story?id=20875476 https://abcnews.go.com/US/exclusive-landlord-hell-defends-te... Just in case there wasn't enough evidence that the people at Netgate are not good human beings.
jorl17 6y ago
Holy cow. Is there proof they were the ones who did that? Can't that be considered slanderous in some parts of the world?!
- stock_toaster 6y ago
  yes. https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D2017-1828 https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D20...
fryman 6y ago
The line mocking VPN implementation hasn’t aged well. That site is a piece of work, from top to bottom.
mcdevilkiller 6y ago
Holy shit, that's atrocious!

TavsiE9s 6y ago

They were supposedly also squatting r/OPNSense, which is why the official subreddit is r/OPNsenseFirewall. Just checked: r/opnsense is a private community The moderators of r/opnsense have set this community to private. Only approved members can view and take part in its discussions.

gonzo 6y ago
Not Netgate

zokier 6y ago

Kinda feel bad for them here though because they did things initially pretty much exactly right: paid real money to a developer with reasonable credentials to work in upstream to develop this feature with apparently best of intentions. That is pretty much textbook example how corporations can participate in open source (without in-house developers). And then it somehow blew on their face. The response then from Netgate was very much on-brand, they indeed have a history of colorful PR. And of course they are ultimately responsible for things they put their name on. But this also highlights how difficult participating in open source can be.

busterarm 6y ago
Netgate isn't exactly your average open source contributor either. In fact, their product is very much closed source. Even the areas of it that have been "open" have largely hidden, incomplete and non-buildable for the longest. It's really a mixed bag. They pay for a bit of development but throw their weight around in ways that are harmful to the project.
- zokier 6y ago
  That's why its sad that this time when they seemingly behaved mostly like good citizen it didn't work out very well especially for them.
tw04 6y ago
I don't know, I've never heard of Arm or NetApp or Netflix having these issues. They just quietly contribute both employee time and financially to the FreeBSD project without fanfare (I guess at times Netflix does blog about their contributions but not in the same look-at-me way). Netgate seems to want to brag about their contributions (despite the fact they don't even show up on the foundation page) while also somehow not taking any responsibility for when they screw up. https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-donors/donors/?donationYear=2020 https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-donors/donors/?donationYea...
- stonogo 6y ago
  Netflix presents their FreeBSD work at FOSDEM fairly often. They're usually good technical talks that don't come off as PR.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Which makes sense. The type of person Netflix wants to know about their FreeBSD contributions is the type of technical person that will be impressed by non-PR technical talks and think "I want to work with this guy". The average Netflix customer shouldn't care at all about the technical details of the background so doing non-technical PR wouldn't gain anything.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
na85 6y ago
>But this also highlights how difficult participating in open source can be. I dunno, I was shopping around for network appliances and I considered a netgate box until I saw how Netgate representatives conduct themselves on their reddit. Participating in open source doesn't need to be difficult; a modicum of humility is all it ought to take but the Netgate folks seem arrogant an abrasive pretty much as their default position. Gave my money to someone else instead.
- newsclues 6y ago
  Who did you give your money to instead of Netgate?
  - na85 6y ago
    Sadly, Ubiquiti. Since I was already buying access points from them I decided open source wasn't worth dealing with assholes and just bought an edge router x
xoa 6y ago
>Kinda feel bad for them here though because they did things initially pretty much exactly right: paid real money to a developer with reasonable credentials to work in upstream to develop this feature with apparently best of intentions. That is pretty much textbook example how corporations can participate in open source (without in-house developers). I mean, I see what you're saying, but I can't 100% agree with this. As a textbook example, I still remember way back when Apple was getting started with KHTML and what would eventually become WebCore and WebKit, and they got quite a lot of heat for a while early on for just doing big fat block code dumps without following project procedures and such. "Contributions welcome" is true for anyone, but there is an implicit (and often these days explicit for larger projects) "...as long as you follow our code standards, communicate, put in the basic effort to do a professional job, etc". Contributions don't have to be perfect but there needs to be some meat there or it's just a waste of everyone's time. Even for a big corp doing big work, just "throwing code over the fence" so to speak often is not appreciated. Netgate hired him, so they were ultimately responsible. They apparently did a very, very poor job of both checking on him and supporting him, which is on them. They didn't see about coordinating with the actual guy who created the entire thing. They didn't do a basic sanity check of what he'd finished before trying to have it pushed right to main, and they were aggressive about deploying a security product that was really really shoddy and in context quite dangerous right out to the general public. And then they were complete dicks about even relatively low-key efforts to try to fix it with as much face saved all around, too much even. I'm sorry, but that doesn't actually seem like a great example of how corps can participate productively. Nor do I honestly think it "highlights how difficult participating in open source can be". Can't just expect unlimited gratitude purely for volunteering something useless/dangerous.
ksec 6y ago
>paid real money to a developer with reasonable credentials to work in upstream to develop this feature with apparently best of intentions. Yes, but Netgate's TSNR is based on Linux. So it seems they will be pivoting to Linux, or at least have less emphasis on FreeBSD. My guess is that going forward there will be less money and participation going to FreeBSD from Netgate. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing depends on your perspective.
- gonzo 6y ago
  TNSR is really based in VPP, Linux is more of a platform than the actual functionality. Our commitment to FreeBSD continues unabated.
knz_ 6y ago
The person they hired to do this work (Kip Macy) is a massive POS. https://abcnews.go.com/US/exclusive-landlord-hell-defends-terrorizing-apartment-tenants/story?id=20875476 https://abcnews.go.com/US/exclusive-landlord-hell-defends-te... Just in case there wasn't enough evidence that the people at Netgate are not good human beings.

jorl17 6y ago

Holy cow. Is there proof they were the ones who did that? Can't that be considered slanderous in some parts of the world?!

stock_toaster 6y ago
yes. https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D2017-1828 https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D20...

fryman 6y ago

The line mocking VPN implementation hasn’t aged well. That site is a piece of work, from top to bottom.

mcdevilkiller 6y ago

Holy shit, that's atrocious!