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In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once

In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically underestimating the populace.

sarabad2021 6y ago
The same can be said of science in that science can't explain the supernatural or the after-life. Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason.
- seneca 6y ago
  > Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason. Criticizing a flashlight for being a poor saw is a flaw in the criticizer, not the flashlight.
- 34679 6y ago
  The whole point of science is to explain "the supernatural". Lightning was once considered "supernatural". Now it isn't. Science did that. Science does not acknowledge the existence of an afterlife because there is no evidence to support such a conclusion.
- wussboy 6y ago
  In my opinion it explains both perfectly well: The human mind is not perfect and sometimes it gets confused, believing that the supernatural is real and that there is life after death even though time and again these phenomena turn out to have completely naturalistic explanations. If you want to go one level deeper I encourage you to read Darwin’s Cathedral where you’ll learn this tendency to believe in the supernatural is not a bug but a feature.
- jwalgenbach 6y ago
  There's a lot of conceit in this notion that just because _you_ can't understand or explain something means that it goes beyond understanding and explanation. Religion exists because of that conceit, that notion that either something is immediately explainable or that it is supernatural. Science exists because the idea that something isn't understood now doesn't mean that we (as a species) won't ever understand it. We stand on the shoulders who have come before us, and not one of them was a god.
christiansakai 6y ago
I thought I knew what Christianity was, growing up in church. After I attended a theological seminary, I realized I knew nothing. Also I stopped debating religion with people online because I realized majority of religion debates are extremely shallow, yes even those with popular sciences like Richard Dawkins are shallow. On the other hand, being just a regular member of my church, I also don't want to bring my background when I talk with my church community. Majority of people don't have the education that I had, and to explain half-assedly will just confuse them more.
- phd514 6y ago
  I've come to a similar place after doing graduate work in Christian theology. The theology, philosophy, and literature of the Bible is the most-studied of any book in the last two millennia and pretty much any question or objection that can be raised about it has been addressed by some of the greatest minds in history. You might not find their conclusions satisfactory, but a serious criticism of Christianity must at least acknowledge and engage with that work.
  - christiansakai 6y ago
    Pretty much. 100%
shireboy 6y ago
I haven't read Feser, but I do agree there is a huge gap between, say, the theology and level of discourse of C.S.Lewis and Tolkein and popular megachurch pastors. Culturally it's interesting to me - all but the most die-hard atheist will likely see some value and truth in Tolkein's work even if they disagree with his theology and choice of church. They may not agree, but would respect him. Where are today's Inklings?
- __aintit__ 6y ago
  >Where are today's Inklings? As someone who has read and studied the Inklings extensively, I think the fact that these few misfit professors had such an impact is astounding in that they were able to do it. To be clear - their level of thought and depth was immense and powerful. All impact is merited. I think these sorts of collections of intellectual individuals are not as rare as we might think; they just don't break out into wider society in the way (in particular) Lewis and Tolkien did. The average person of today (anecdotal citation here) is less read, less cultured, less knowledgeable of language, history, religion, philopsophy, and literature than the average person of yesteryear. Maybe this has something to do with it.
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    The Inklings were overall extremely well-read and literate. Literally professors on mythology, linguistics/etc. Not necessarily fair to compare the general population to them. ;)
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    The average person of that time was far less educated. Because only the elite went to university.
- luxuryballs 6y ago
  Speaking of CS Lewis, everyone should read his cosmic trilogy. It’s so astounding that I’m surprised it didn’t get the attention that the Narnia books did, and the third book is on par with 1984 and Brave New World, written as a modern fairy tale yet also as a sci-fi in the tradition of HG Wells. It’s such a good series and probably paints a better understanding of what a fallen world means and what a proper relationship with God is like, yet using sci-fi literalism instead of religious dogma.
cableshaft 6y ago
I grew up Protestant but have considered myself Agnostic for a while. However, lately I've been having the urge to dig into spirituality more, as I'm starting to suspect there can be something there, it's just that, except for a single sermon I sat in about people destroying natural rock formations that have been around for millions of years on a whim (yeah the pastor actually said millions of years), I haven't found anything that seemed worth reflecting on in church services I've attended in a very long time. The book you posted seems interesting, I'll give that a read. I also found Tolstoy's 'A Confession' very interesting back in the day. Do you have other resources you would recommend I check out?
- whiddershins 6y ago
  Jordan Peterson’s lectures on Genesis are pretty great. I only listened to the first few but they are very powerful. Are you looking primarily for Christianity or spirituality in general? Braving the Wilderness (I haven’t finished this one) For addiction: Breathing Underwater New Seeds of Contemplation By reputation: any CS Lewis, Bertrand Russel, and more contemporary is David Bentley Hart Catching the Big Fish by David Lynch The Four Agreements Basically that’s what I’m see in my kindle at the moment that is relevant. edit: The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle is incredible I hear the Bhagavad Gita is great Start Where You Are by Pemma Chodron is great
  - cableshaft 6y ago
    > Are you looking primarily for Christianity or spirituality in general? I'll take either. Thank you for those.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Francis Schaeffer, He Is There And He Is Not Silent.
bobthechef 6y ago
Oh, yes. Quoting Fulton Sheen: "There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be." In this case, I would include the majority of Catholics who are oblivious today about the very basics of what the Church believes, much less why, and practice it seldomly on one hand or cliquishly on the other. When the culture becomes hostile to the faith, it is little wonder that many fall away if all that kept them there was vacuous habit and social inertia. Obviously, if your ideas are primitive and stupid, and the culture within the Church enters a malaise, and the promised rewards of defecting and joining the popular chorus seem so enticing, then you will experience defections and apostasy. The intellectual mediocrity of people like Dawkins impresses only the uneducated or the mis-educated. But frankly, the kinds of apostasies we're seeing in the US are mostly a formality. Those defecting are effectively apostates already. They're just not going through the motions anymore, either because they're tired of faking it, or because the social incentives of putting on appearances no longer seem to exist. You might even fear being seen as a "weirdo", though you will find that most people will admire, even feel intimidated by, a well-informed and educated Catholic who unapologetically and without a feeling of shame or cowardice is frank about his beliefs. Of course, FWIW, the Church itself is growing in numbers. It is growing rapidly in Africa and in Asia, though Catholics, and more broadly, Christians are the most persecuted group in the world (persecution also tends to produce more conversions). The West is undergoing a period of cultural decadence. Whether it will survive or whether the carcass will rot out completely, I don't know. At the moment, it looks like the future of the Church is on those continents. Feser has written a few other books that others might also find useful. I have greatly enjoyed his writing. Some find Peter Kreeft, himself a convert, a good introduction (his "Apologetics" for instance), and I've heard some good things about Scott Hahn. These are probably good entry points before venturing into the vast literature of the last few millennia.
- jwalgenbach 6y ago
  "There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be." Oh, that's crap. There are more than 100 victims of child sexual abuse by Catholic clergy where the Church itself covered up the crime. You can play with definitions however you want, but that is not a misperception of the Church, but a realistic view of the actions of the Church. I've been Catholic, and the Church exists to extend the existence of the Church. Any other action is in service to that goal.
rantwasp 6y ago
lol. you really fail to understand why everything is dumbed down? it’s because 1) people don’t have a lot of time 2) a lot of people don’t need or can’t understand the arguments. why bother?
lookdangerous 6y ago
I agree. I grew up in a conservative congregation with a difficult-to-understand theology. I went through some dark and nihilistic points in my life but after being exposed to Jordan Peterson's study of Christianity as the mythology that underpins the culture of the west I developed a deep appreciation for these ideas and now consider myself a Christ follower.
Alenycus 6y ago
Reading dostoesvsky brought my back to the church on a spiritual and emotional level, and the Abolition of Man and Mere Christianity bt CS Lewis brought me back on an emotional level.
CivBase 6y ago
> I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically underestimating the populace. They're not underestimating the populace. They're catering to them in a desperate attempt to stay economically viable. The big beautiful building, supporting staff, production equipment, etc doesn't pay for itself. Many churches are operated as businesses - ones which have realized that the easiest, most profitable mode of operation is to refrain from teaching/challenging your supporters as much as possible. Mix in a sense of tradition, some political activism, and a touch of self-righteousness and you've got yourself a recipe for a successful organization. At least until your congregation passes away and their children realize they have no use for you. There are still a few churches out there which use the hellfire-and-brimstone approach, but it's not very effective on Gen X and younger. Nowadays, I'm certain it drives more people away from Christianity than it brings in.

sarabad2021 6y ago

The same can be said of science in that science can't explain the supernatural or the after-life. Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason.

seneca 6y ago
> Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason. Criticizing a flashlight for being a poor saw is a flaw in the criticizer, not the flashlight.
34679 6y ago
The whole point of science is to explain "the supernatural". Lightning was once considered "supernatural". Now it isn't. Science did that. Science does not acknowledge the existence of an afterlife because there is no evidence to support such a conclusion.
wussboy 6y ago
In my opinion it explains both perfectly well: The human mind is not perfect and sometimes it gets confused, believing that the supernatural is real and that there is life after death even though time and again these phenomena turn out to have completely naturalistic explanations. If you want to go one level deeper I encourage you to read Darwin’s Cathedral where you’ll learn this tendency to believe in the supernatural is not a bug but a feature.
jwalgenbach 6y ago
There's a lot of conceit in this notion that just because _you_ can't understand or explain something means that it goes beyond understanding and explanation. Religion exists because of that conceit, that notion that either something is immediately explainable or that it is supernatural. Science exists because the idea that something isn't understood now doesn't mean that we (as a species) won't ever understand it. We stand on the shoulders who have come before us, and not one of them was a god.

christiansakai 6y ago

I thought I knew what Christianity was, growing up in church. After I attended a theological seminary, I realized I knew nothing. Also I stopped debating religion with people online because I realized majority of religion debates are extremely shallow, yes even those with popular sciences like Richard Dawkins are shallow. On the other hand, being just a regular member of my church, I also don't want to bring my background when I talk with my church community. Majority of people don't have the education that I had, and to explain half-assedly will just confuse them more.

phd514 6y ago
I've come to a similar place after doing graduate work in Christian theology. The theology, philosophy, and literature of the Bible is the most-studied of any book in the last two millennia and pretty much any question or objection that can be raised about it has been addressed by some of the greatest minds in history. You might not find their conclusions satisfactory, but a serious criticism of Christianity must at least acknowledge and engage with that work.
- christiansakai 6y ago
  Pretty much. 100%

shireboy 6y ago

I haven't read Feser, but I do agree there is a huge gap between, say, the theology and level of discourse of C.S.Lewis and Tolkein and popular megachurch pastors. Culturally it's interesting to me - all but the most die-hard atheist will likely see some value and truth in Tolkein's work even if they disagree with his theology and choice of church. They may not agree, but would respect him. Where are today's Inklings?

__aintit__ 6y ago
>Where are today's Inklings? As someone who has read and studied the Inklings extensively, I think the fact that these few misfit professors had such an impact is astounding in that they were able to do it. To be clear - their level of thought and depth was immense and powerful. All impact is merited. I think these sorts of collections of intellectual individuals are not as rare as we might think; they just don't break out into wider society in the way (in particular) Lewis and Tolkien did. The average person of today (anecdotal citation here) is less read, less cultured, less knowledgeable of language, history, religion, philopsophy, and literature than the average person of yesteryear. Maybe this has something to do with it.
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  The Inklings were overall extremely well-read and literate. Literally professors on mythology, linguistics/etc. Not necessarily fair to compare the general population to them. ;)
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  The average person of that time was far less educated. Because only the elite went to university.
luxuryballs 6y ago
Speaking of CS Lewis, everyone should read his cosmic trilogy. It’s so astounding that I’m surprised it didn’t get the attention that the Narnia books did, and the third book is on par with 1984 and Brave New World, written as a modern fairy tale yet also as a sci-fi in the tradition of HG Wells. It’s such a good series and probably paints a better understanding of what a fallen world means and what a proper relationship with God is like, yet using sci-fi literalism instead of religious dogma.

cableshaft 6y ago

I grew up Protestant but have considered myself Agnostic for a while. However, lately I've been having the urge to dig into spirituality more, as I'm starting to suspect there can be something there, it's just that, except for a single sermon I sat in about people destroying natural rock formations that have been around for millions of years on a whim (yeah the pastor actually said millions of years), I haven't found anything that seemed worth reflecting on in church services I've attended in a very long time. The book you posted seems interesting, I'll give that a read. I also found Tolstoy's 'A Confession' very interesting back in the day. Do you have other resources you would recommend I check out?

whiddershins 6y ago
Jordan Peterson’s lectures on Genesis are pretty great. I only listened to the first few but they are very powerful. Are you looking primarily for Christianity or spirituality in general? Braving the Wilderness (I haven’t finished this one) For addiction: Breathing Underwater New Seeds of Contemplation By reputation: any CS Lewis, Bertrand Russel, and more contemporary is David Bentley Hart Catching the Big Fish by David Lynch The Four Agreements Basically that’s what I’m see in my kindle at the moment that is relevant. edit: The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle is incredible I hear the Bhagavad Gita is great Start Where You Are by Pemma Chodron is great
- cableshaft 6y ago
  > Are you looking primarily for Christianity or spirituality in general? I'll take either. Thank you for those.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Francis Schaeffer, He Is There And He Is Not Silent.

bobthechef 6y ago

Oh, yes. Quoting Fulton Sheen: "There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be." In this case, I would include the majority of Catholics who are oblivious today about the very basics of what the Church believes, much less why, and practice it seldomly on one hand or cliquishly on the other. When the culture becomes hostile to the faith, it is little wonder that many fall away if all that kept them there was vacuous habit and social inertia. Obviously, if your ideas are primitive and stupid, and the culture within the Church enters a malaise, and the promised rewards of defecting and joining the popular chorus seem so enticing, then you will experience defections and apostasy. The intellectual mediocrity of people like Dawkins impresses only the uneducated or the mis-educated. But frankly, the kinds of apostasies we're seeing in the US are mostly a formality. Those defecting are effectively apostates already. They're just not going through the motions anymore, either because they're tired of faking it, or because the social incentives of putting on appearances no longer seem to exist. You might even fear being seen as a "weirdo", though you will find that most people will admire, even feel intimidated by, a well-informed and educated Catholic who unapologetically and without a feeling of shame or cowardice is frank about his beliefs. Of course, FWIW, the Church itself is growing in numbers. It is growing rapidly in Africa and in Asia, though Catholics, and more broadly, Christians are the most persecuted group in the world (persecution also tends to produce more conversions). The West is undergoing a period of cultural decadence. Whether it will survive or whether the carcass will rot out completely, I don't know. At the moment, it looks like the future of the Church is on those continents. Feser has written a few other books that others might also find useful. I have greatly enjoyed his writing. Some find Peter Kreeft, himself a convert, a good introduction (his "Apologetics" for instance), and I've heard some good things about Scott Hahn. These are probably good entry points before venturing into the vast literature of the last few millennia.

jwalgenbach 6y ago
"There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be." Oh, that's crap. There are more than 100 victims of child sexual abuse by Catholic clergy where the Church itself covered up the crime. You can play with definitions however you want, but that is not a misperception of the Church, but a realistic view of the actions of the Church. I've been Catholic, and the Church exists to extend the existence of the Church. Any other action is in service to that goal.

rantwasp 6y ago

lol. you really fail to understand why everything is dumbed down? it’s because 1) people don’t have a lot of time 2) a lot of people don’t need or can’t understand the arguments. why bother?

lookdangerous 6y ago

I agree. I grew up in a conservative congregation with a difficult-to-understand theology. I went through some dark and nihilistic points in my life but after being exposed to Jordan Peterson's study of Christianity as the mythology that underpins the culture of the west I developed a deep appreciation for these ideas and now consider myself a Christ follower.

Alenycus 6y ago

Reading dostoesvsky brought my back to the church on a spiritual and emotional level, and the Abolition of Man and Mere Christianity bt CS Lewis brought me back on an emotional level.

CivBase 6y ago

> I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically underestimating the populace. They're not underestimating the populace. They're catering to them in a desperate attempt to stay economically viable. The big beautiful building, supporting staff, production equipment, etc doesn't pay for itself. Many churches are operated as businesses - ones which have realized that the easiest, most profitable mode of operation is to refrain from teaching/challenging your supporters as much as possible. Mix in a sense of tradition, some political activism, and a touch of self-righteousness and you've got yourself a recipe for a successful organization. At least until your congregation passes away and their children realize they have no use for you. There are still a few churches out there which use the hellfire-and-brimstone approach, but it's not very effective on Gen X and younger. Nowadays, I'm certain it drives more people away from Christianity than it brings in.