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On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

83 points by jorgenveisdal 6y ago

ggm 6y ago
Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implications. Joseph Rotblat comes to mind.
- anon_tor_12345 6y ago
  Lol there are people that do this every day. Either they take a principled stand against tech and turn down lucrative research roles in industry, or, for example, they turn down funding from the military; I switched PhD programs last year because I did not want to work on object detection for the army. In doing so I forewent a very nice fellowship. I don't say this because I want a pat on the back but just to demonstrate that it's very common.
  - ggm 6y ago
    ... of his standing.
    - anon_tor_12345 6y ago
      i'm not sure why you think it's harder for someone "of his standing" to turn down opportunities. the marginal utility for him is much lower than for grad students that have to choose between RAships and TAships or fresh PhDs that have to choose between risky tenure track grinds and lucrative industry roles.
      - ggm 6y ago
        I don't think its hard. I just think they don't. I think it's really sad how few senior scientists with standing do this. They seem to lack the fortitude to do something, which isn't that hard when it comes down to it. I don't blame fresh starts who go for the lucrative roles, they need the money. Once you're established, finding a hill to stand on and choosing to stand on it seems to get .. less likely? You made the call, good for you. I admire that. I wish more people with established status did, and said so. Am I missing something? is there a lot of news out there about CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things? I don't see it, and thats what I'm responding to here. Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. He looked at what was going to happen with it, and decided to stop feeding the beast. Where's the equivalent behavour from his peer-set in todays world?
        anon_tor_12345 6y ago
        >CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things there are very frequently articles/gossip on quittings/firings of famous researchers. timnit gebru is a recent example. >Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. i wouldn't be so quick to lionize him - he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-redeem-the-world-with-logic http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-r...
        jpfr 6y ago
        > he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide Wiener's wife told him a lie about Pitts. She invented an indecency involving Wiender's daugher. Both Wiener and Pitts never found out the truth about who ended their relationship.
        pessimizer 6y ago
        And how do we know that it was a lie? Did she admit it later? If she did, what were the reasons to believe her recantation over her accusation? Did the daughter say it was a lie later in life? All I know from the article is that Wiener, a very smart person, thought the accusation was credible enough at the time to completely cut off people who were very important to him personally and intellectually. I also know that those people accused were very heavy drinkers. It's safer to say we don't know anything about the veracity of the claim unless the reference offered some sort of material alibi.
    - brobdingnagians 6y ago
      Part of the issue might be that those who choose the more moral course don't get the large government grants and military funding, which means that they don't get well known, not because they aren't just as talented but because of lack of funds. So scientists of standing may self select for the kind of person who will do anything for money and fame. If society had more funding for principled causes, or celebrated those with them, we might see more scientists with standing (i.e. well-known) who also stuck to their principles.
  - pierrefermat1 6y ago
    I think it's noble from a personal perspective but realistically all developments made in CV are eventually going to be used in military applications anyway.
- Guthur 6y ago
  Was it a moral stance or the fact he had a great detestation of human suffering, as alluded to in the article. Someone of that brilliance would quite easily be able to draw the link between their work and future suffering. It's possible this is a moral stance but I'm not so sure, it some what feels like a pain reaction. I must admit I've had the same thought about my own actions, I hate to see people suffer too the point where it has a pain like sensation, If I've been the cause of it I try to rectified quickly, is this morality?
  - boygobbo 6y ago
    Well, we often talk about morality in terms of our emotional and physical response - e.g. revulsion ('disgusting behaviour'), fear ('recoiling in horror') and pain ('pangs of conscience'), etc. It's also pretty difficult to determine whether Wiener's detestation of suffering was the cause of his moral stance or vice versa. I would argue that whatever the associated reaction/cause, the outcome is a moral stance as it influenced his decisions based on the consequences his actions might have on other people. OTOH, if Wiener felt bad about other people's suffering but it didn't affect his choices, it wouldn't be a moral stance.
  - simiones 6y ago
    There is an exploration of this train of thought in Frank Herbert's novel "Whipping Star", where a criminal condemned to a Clockwork-Orange-style conditioning to abhor pain and suffering nevertheless finds a way to commit murder by exploiting a truly alien being with no human-understandable concept of suffering. Still, I think in non sci-fi scenarios, an abhorrence for suffering and moral behavior are very much linked, if not perfectly equal.
  - ycombinete 6y ago
    I think you need to define what you consider a “moral stance” to be, before one can answer whether or not it was one.
  - throwaway81523 6y ago
    He thought and wrote about such matters with some depth, though he wasn't that worldly wise. I still liked his books like "The Human Use Of Human Beings" very much. He also wrote a novel about a patent troll, called "The Tempter", in 1959!
- boygobbo 6y ago
  And let's not forget that Bertrand Russell was also a very principled man - he was imprisoned for his pacifism during World War I and for his involvement in anti-nuclear campaigning in 1961 (aged 89!).
- bmitc 6y ago
  Do you have a source for this? I have been reading a fair amount on information theory, cybernetics, and Wiener lately, and I haven’t seen this mentioned, at least not yet. In fact, the sources I’ve read said he was quite enthusiastic about helping out for both WWI and WWII. For example: https://www.cantorsparadise.com/the-absent-minded-father-of-cybernetics-norbert-wiener-2a0b66aa6b4b https://www.cantorsparadise.com/the-absent-minded-father-of-...
  - ggm 6y ago
    This was postwar. Like many scientists, He viewed the second world war as a "just" war, but the cold-war? less so.
    - bmitc 6y ago
      Gotcha. Thanks for the time period reference, as I haven't gotten to sources that cover that yet.
- thedailymail 6y ago
  He did take that stance later in life but he started his work in cybernetics in a project intended to improve anti-aircraft targeting during WWII.
hilbert42 6y ago
If you are interested in or have done some philosophy then you'll find this article fascinating and informative. It covers aspects of the strained relationship between Bertrand Russell and Norbert Wiener that I can't ever remember reading about in other short biographies of the pre-WWI Cambridge philosophers and mathematicians. Similarly, the somewhat awkward and prickly relationship been Russell and Wittgenstein is mentioned. The article conveys a sense of the intellectual milieu in and around Cambridge in 1913. That must have been a remarkable time to have been at Cambridge and majored in philosophy and or mathematics with the likes of Russell, Wiener, Wittgenstein, G.E. Moore, G.H. Hardy J.E. Littlewood, A.N. Whitehead all there at the same time—even Srinivasa Ramanujan was there in 1913! I'd have loved to have been around this intellectual tour de force when I was studying those subjects. Ah, well, I'll just have to be content with the fact that a number of my textbooks were written by four of them not to mention other notables who they'd influenced.
- dluan 6y ago
  Paul Halmos also famously did not get along well with Norbert Wiener, apparently they would argue a lot.
- ArtWomb 6y ago
  Specifically Trinity College, Cambridge. From Newton to Byron. And down to the Cambridge Spies and Bloomsbury Group. Although they still do the Math Tripos, the Greats program in Ancient Greek and Latin seems to have befallen modern times and is sadly diminished. One wonders what we are losing ;)
  - quietbritishjim 6y ago
    I think that what you call the "Greats" programme would today be called the "Classics", which still seems to be a Tripos option [1]. It requires knowledge of Latin but an extra preliminary year is available to teach it to those without the background. It also includes "intensive ancient Greek programme". [1] https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/classics https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/classics
- 6y ago
IndySun 6y ago
I found this article another gem from the numerous gems concerning Russell. I feel I must point out, as a fully paid up 'fan' of Russell's, and because people here have mentioned 'principles', he misstepped on race, perhaps (kindly) an indication of the sheer engrained blanket racism still prevalent in the world throughout the 20th century. For those evermore curious... https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/interview-bertrand-russell-and-phyllis-evans-part-1 https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/interview-bertrand-rus...
- simiones 6y ago
  Can you point out a specific example of racism in that interview? I haven't looked through it entirely, but searching for some common terms that I expect someone to use when showing some racism ("race", "racism", "black", "intelligence", "asian", "brown") I couldn't find anything (he does mention Black men once, but only in a hypothetical reaction he expects the general public to have, one that he criticizes). The interview is relatively long though, and searching for those words is not a sufficient indication, so I am curious.
  - IndySun 6y ago
    No contentious race or eugenic topics are brought up in that interview. It was just for the curious... I have looked, and I have yet to find serious recorded mentions of Russell on these topics, only transcripts, letters, etc..
    - mellosouls 6y ago
      You misspoke then? It would be useful to clarify as you've essentially just accused him of racism and its not clear that you acknowledge that accusation was incorrect or at least unevidenced here.
      - IndySun 6y ago
        Not at all. Anyone with a passing interest would be aware. As I stated, as the gist of the early posts mentioned Russell being a man of principles, it is always worth reminding ourselves no one is perfect. NB I now see the wording of my post could be read as 'here is a post concerning race'. But I should have separated the first line from the rest of the post; the 'gem' I was referring to was the original post.
nabla9 6y ago
Great article. Interesting that Wiener's genius (and his suicidal depression) may have been partly result of his fathers educational experiment.
techer 6y ago
Unrelated but this is Norbert’s account of meeting Albert Einstein: http://web.archive.org/web/20150426074612/https://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/wiener-letter/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150426074612/https://libraries....
- AndyMcConachie 6y ago
  Renewed war in Europe, he predicted, would pass the "leadership of civilization...to America and ultimately to Asia." Said Mr. Einstein in 1925. He was right.
sriram_malhar 6y ago
Surprising there is no mention of Frank Ramsey, who was around at the same time, and was the only one considered equal to Wittgenstein.
beansontoast 6y ago
And no mention of the unreciprocated romantic interest, which to me is the most interesting facet of their relationship.
Sporktacular 6y ago
So it's about what Russell, Wiener and Wittgenstein though of each other. Hard to get excited by the details of their personal relationships when the subject that brought them together is fascinating, but almost ignored. Would have been interested in the specific insights that affected the work of each other (beyond Logicism and Platonic Realism).

83 points by jorgenveisdal 6y ago

ggm 6y ago

Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implications. Joseph Rotblat comes to mind.

anon_tor_12345 6y ago
Lol there are people that do this every day. Either they take a principled stand against tech and turn down lucrative research roles in industry, or, for example, they turn down funding from the military; I switched PhD programs last year because I did not want to work on object detection for the army. In doing so I forewent a very nice fellowship. I don't say this because I want a pat on the back but just to demonstrate that it's very common.
- ggm 6y ago
  ... of his standing.
  - anon_tor_12345 6y ago
    i'm not sure why you think it's harder for someone "of his standing" to turn down opportunities. the marginal utility for him is much lower than for grad students that have to choose between RAships and TAships or fresh PhDs that have to choose between risky tenure track grinds and lucrative industry roles.
    - ggm 6y ago
      I don't think its hard. I just think they don't. I think it's really sad how few senior scientists with standing do this. They seem to lack the fortitude to do something, which isn't that hard when it comes down to it. I don't blame fresh starts who go for the lucrative roles, they need the money. Once you're established, finding a hill to stand on and choosing to stand on it seems to get .. less likely? You made the call, good for you. I admire that. I wish more people with established status did, and said so. Am I missing something? is there a lot of news out there about CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things? I don't see it, and thats what I'm responding to here. Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. He looked at what was going to happen with it, and decided to stop feeding the beast. Where's the equivalent behavour from his peer-set in todays world?
      - anon_tor_12345 6y ago
        >CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang) about things there are very frequently articles/gossip on quittings/firings of famous researchers. timnit gebru is a recent example. >Norbert Weiner was apex in his field. i wouldn't be so quick to lionize him - he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-redeem-the-world-with-logic http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-to-r...
        jpfr 6y ago
        > he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his suicide Wiener's wife told him a lie about Pitts. She invented an indecency involving Wiender's daugher. Both Wiener and Pitts never found out the truth about who ended their relationship.
        pessimizer 6y ago
        And how do we know that it was a lie? Did she admit it later? If she did, what were the reasons to believe her recantation over her accusation? Did the daughter say it was a lie later in life? All I know from the article is that Wiener, a very smart person, thought the accusation was credible enough at the time to completely cut off people who were very important to him personally and intellectually. I also know that those people accused were very heavy drinkers. It's safer to say we don't know anything about the veracity of the claim unless the reference offered some sort of material alibi.
  - brobdingnagians 6y ago
    Part of the issue might be that those who choose the more moral course don't get the large government grants and military funding, which means that they don't get well known, not because they aren't just as talented but because of lack of funds. So scientists of standing may self select for the kind of person who will do anything for money and fame. If society had more funding for principled causes, or celebrated those with them, we might see more scientists with standing (i.e. well-known) who also stuck to their principles.
- pierrefermat1 6y ago
  I think it's noble from a personal perspective but realistically all developments made in CV are eventually going to be used in military applications anyway.
Guthur 6y ago
Was it a moral stance or the fact he had a great detestation of human suffering, as alluded to in the article. Someone of that brilliance would quite easily be able to draw the link between their work and future suffering. It's possible this is a moral stance but I'm not so sure, it some what feels like a pain reaction. I must admit I've had the same thought about my own actions, I hate to see people suffer too the point where it has a pain like sensation, If I've been the cause of it I try to rectified quickly, is this morality?
- boygobbo 6y ago
  Well, we often talk about morality in terms of our emotional and physical response - e.g. revulsion ('disgusting behaviour'), fear ('recoiling in horror') and pain ('pangs of conscience'), etc. It's also pretty difficult to determine whether Wiener's detestation of suffering was the cause of his moral stance or vice versa. I would argue that whatever the associated reaction/cause, the outcome is a moral stance as it influenced his decisions based on the consequences his actions might have on other people. OTOH, if Wiener felt bad about other people's suffering but it didn't affect his choices, it wouldn't be a moral stance.
- simiones 6y ago
  There is an exploration of this train of thought in Frank Herbert's novel "Whipping Star", where a criminal condemned to a Clockwork-Orange-style conditioning to abhor pain and suffering nevertheless finds a way to commit murder by exploiting a truly alien being with no human-understandable concept of suffering. Still, I think in non sci-fi scenarios, an abhorrence for suffering and moral behavior are very much linked, if not perfectly equal.
- ycombinete 6y ago
  I think you need to define what you consider a “moral stance” to be, before one can answer whether or not it was one.
- throwaway81523 6y ago
  He thought and wrote about such matters with some depth, though he wasn't that worldly wise. I still liked his books like "The Human Use Of Human Beings" very much. He also wrote a novel about a patent troll, called "The Tempter", in 1959!
boygobbo 6y ago
And let's not forget that Bertrand Russell was also a very principled man - he was imprisoned for his pacifism during World War I and for his involvement in anti-nuclear campaigning in 1961 (aged 89!).
bmitc 6y ago
Do you have a source for this? I have been reading a fair amount on information theory, cybernetics, and Wiener lately, and I haven’t seen this mentioned, at least not yet. In fact, the sources I’ve read said he was quite enthusiastic about helping out for both WWI and WWII. For example: https://www.cantorsparadise.com/the-absent-minded-father-of-cybernetics-norbert-wiener-2a0b66aa6b4b https://www.cantorsparadise.com/the-absent-minded-father-of-...
- ggm 6y ago
  This was postwar. Like many scientists, He viewed the second world war as a "just" war, but the cold-war? less so.
  - bmitc 6y ago
    Gotcha. Thanks for the time period reference, as I haven't gotten to sources that cover that yet.
thedailymail 6y ago
He did take that stance later in life but he started his work in cybernetics in a project intended to improve anti-aircraft targeting during WWII.

hilbert42 6y ago

If you are interested in or have done some philosophy then you'll find this article fascinating and informative. It covers aspects of the strained relationship between Bertrand Russell and Norbert Wiener that I can't ever remember reading about in other short biographies of the pre-WWI Cambridge philosophers and mathematicians. Similarly, the somewhat awkward and prickly relationship been Russell and Wittgenstein is mentioned. The article conveys a sense of the intellectual milieu in and around Cambridge in 1913. That must have been a remarkable time to have been at Cambridge and majored in philosophy and or mathematics with the likes of Russell, Wiener, Wittgenstein, G.E. Moore, G.H. Hardy J.E. Littlewood, A.N. Whitehead all there at the same time—even Srinivasa Ramanujan was there in 1913! I'd have loved to have been around this intellectual tour de force when I was studying those subjects. Ah, well, I'll just have to be content with the fact that a number of my textbooks were written by four of them not to mention other notables who they'd influenced.

dluan 6y ago
Paul Halmos also famously did not get along well with Norbert Wiener, apparently they would argue a lot.
ArtWomb 6y ago
Specifically Trinity College, Cambridge. From Newton to Byron. And down to the Cambridge Spies and Bloomsbury Group. Although they still do the Math Tripos, the Greats program in Ancient Greek and Latin seems to have befallen modern times and is sadly diminished. One wonders what we are losing ;)
- quietbritishjim 6y ago
  I think that what you call the "Greats" programme would today be called the "Classics", which still seems to be a Tripos option [1]. It requires knowledge of Latin but an extra preliminary year is available to teach it to those without the background. It also includes "intensive ancient Greek programme". [1] https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/classics https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/classics
6y ago

IndySun 6y ago

I found this article another gem from the numerous gems concerning Russell. I feel I must point out, as a fully paid up 'fan' of Russell's, and because people here have mentioned 'principles', he misstepped on race, perhaps (kindly) an indication of the sheer engrained blanket racism still prevalent in the world throughout the 20th century. For those evermore curious... https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/interview-bertrand-russell-and-phyllis-evans-part-1 https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/interview-bertrand-rus...

simiones 6y ago
Can you point out a specific example of racism in that interview? I haven't looked through it entirely, but searching for some common terms that I expect someone to use when showing some racism ("race", "racism", "black", "intelligence", "asian", "brown") I couldn't find anything (he does mention Black men once, but only in a hypothetical reaction he expects the general public to have, one that he criticizes). The interview is relatively long though, and searching for those words is not a sufficient indication, so I am curious.
- IndySun 6y ago
  No contentious race or eugenic topics are brought up in that interview. It was just for the curious... I have looked, and I have yet to find serious recorded mentions of Russell on these topics, only transcripts, letters, etc..
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    You misspoke then? It would be useful to clarify as you've essentially just accused him of racism and its not clear that you acknowledge that accusation was incorrect or at least unevidenced here.
    - IndySun 6y ago
      Not at all. Anyone with a passing interest would be aware. As I stated, as the gist of the early posts mentioned Russell being a man of principles, it is always worth reminding ourselves no one is perfect. NB I now see the wording of my post could be read as 'here is a post concerning race'. But I should have separated the first line from the rest of the post; the 'gem' I was referring to was the original post.

nabla9 6y ago

Great article. Interesting that Wiener's genius (and his suicidal depression) may have been partly result of his fathers educational experiment.

techer 6y ago

Unrelated but this is Norbert’s account of meeting Albert Einstein: http://web.archive.org/web/20150426074612/https://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/wiener-letter/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150426074612/https://libraries....

AndyMcConachie 6y ago
Renewed war in Europe, he predicted, would pass the "leadership of civilization...to America and ultimately to Asia." Said Mr. Einstein in 1925. He was right.

sriram_malhar 6y ago

Surprising there is no mention of Frank Ramsey, who was around at the same time, and was the only one considered equal to Wittgenstein.

beansontoast 6y ago

And no mention of the unreciprocated romantic interest, which to me is the most interesting facet of their relationship.

Sporktacular 6y ago

So it's about what Russell, Wiener and Wittgenstein though of each other. Hard to get excited by the details of their personal relationships when the subject that brought them together is fascinating, but almost ignored. Would have been interested in the specific insights that affected the work of each other (beyond Logicism and Platonic Realism).